[Rhodes22-list] Sailing LIS

Fri Mar 9 12:01:49 EST 2007

Bill,

When I bought my R-22 in 1980, Stan was sailing on the south shore of LI 
(out of Amity harbor from a canal behind his house), not on the LIS.  Most 
sailing folks suggested that I trailer my boat to Hecksher State Park (south 
shore) to sail in some wind (Atlantic or Great South Bay) since the LIS was 
mostly for stink boaters, due to the poor wind conditions.  While we have 
been becalmed on the LIS, we usually have plenty of wind.  Besides, I always 
thought that when the wind died, you sent the kids in the water to swim 
(Dad, when are we going to GO somewhere FUN instead of just sailing) or 
perform maintenance (where's my battery operated Wohl soldering iron?)

BTW, I have watched many smaller sail boats (17'-19') with full keels follow 
us through shortcuts with our board up (outside of the channels), only to 
shake their fists at us as they run aground on the shoals and wonder why we 
didn't.

Tidal changes on the LIS?  Have you ever seen a boat hanging by the mooring 
lines when tied too tightly?  It is even more fun to see the owner try to 
let the boat down, gently, not wanting to wait for the next high tide.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com> Friday, March 09, 2007 10:45 AM
> Wally,
>
> Let me know when you're around NYC, and let's go sailing together. You can 
> teach me a lot.
>
> Long Island Sound is a fascinating place to sail, and you would really 
> appreciate it. Stan designed the R-22 for conditions on LIS, and when you 
> try to use what he built into the boat you start to understand what you 
> could be doing if only you were smarter.
>
> I always sail for hours at a time holding trim, then I come about, and do 
> it again to get home.
>
> Water sloshes in and out of the Sound with the tides. There are 
> bottlenecks at both ends where the current reaches 5-6 knots, reverses, 
> and then does 5-6 knots in the other direction. This happens 4 times a 
> day, and both the velocity and the direction of the currents is 
> continually changing. Meanwhile there is a 10 foot tidal variation in many 
> places, so you watch the old timers cutting corners, and then you see the 
> newbies slam into rocks when they try to repeat what they just saw a 
> couple of hours before.
>
> At the same time, there is good air almost every day. Except that it 
> shifts direction as land masses and water gain and lose heat over the 
> course of the day. So it is almost always dead calm some of the time, and 
> during the wind shifts only a few boats can actually sail. The R-22 with a 
> 175 is one of them.
>
> DeLoreme sells a gps that plugs into a laptop along with a roadmap of the 
> US for $100. It is full of hidden features that allow you to use it as a 
> navigating system on the water. I am planning to build waypoints into a 
> chart I am constructing for the part of the sound I sail. On the water it 
> should track my route and speed from minute to minute, and retain that 
> information until I get the laptop back home where I can analyze the data.
>
> Once I have the navigation system under control I'm going to try playing 
> with the variables as you suggest. I should be able to see set and drift, 
> along with VMG. I plan to save the charts of each voyage so I can plan 
> with them the following winter when I can relive the experiences and try 
> to learn more from them.
>
> I will keep notes on the charts of when I tried what variables. I'll let 
> you know.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> TN Rhodey wrote:
>> Bill, We did this out in the Gulf Stream on a Pearson 35. We would make 
>> changes and then hold that trim for hours. We weren't racing but we were 
>> trying to make time up the coast. There were times we mainained a steay 
>> 8-10 knots for hours on same tack. Part of the mix was tuning for 2-3 
>> knot or so push from Gulf Stream.
>>
>> Wally
>>
>>
>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:15:06 -0500
>>>
>>> Thanks, Wally,
>>>
>>> Another project to add to this summer's list. I've got open sailing and 
>>> steady winds all the time. I'm anxious to understand this better.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>> Something to try when you have some wide open sailing space and steady 
>>>> wind........first read the part of your GPS manual covering VMG. Once 
>>>> you understand this head out to open waters and track your VMG sailing 
>>>> towards upwind waypoint with board all the way down. Now slowly raise 
>>>> your board and watch changes in VMG. Try this for different points of 
>>>> sails....the higher you head into the wind the more you want the board 
>>>> down. At a certain point between beating and reaching your VMG will 
>>>> improve with board slightly raised. The lighter the wind the wind the 
>>>> less it is needed. As you fall off the wind the CB provides more drag 
>>>> than lift. You can actually measure this with a GPS.
>>>>
>>>> Wally
>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>>>> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:14:42 -0500
>>>>>
>>>>> Hank,
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand racing, this is what it's all about -- the winners are 
>>>>> the ones who can consistently correctly factor in enough variables to 
>>>>> come in first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>> Hank wrote:
>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In theory you are correct, but generally you will not get near enough
>>>>>> advantage in speed to counter the extra distance needed to travel due 
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> side ward drift.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hank
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/8/07, john Belanger <jhnblngr at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> doesn't the essential arguement come down to the same thing. speed 
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> the course vs. distance travelled to get to a given point? are you 
>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>> there quicker if you cant your bow off a few degrees to windward to
>>>>>>> compensate for drift and get an increase in your speed by having the 
>>>>>>> board
>>>>>>> up ie less wetted surface?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote: Lee,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You may be going faster with the centerboard up, but you will not be
>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>> better time toward your target due to sideways drift. I big function 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> centerboard is to prevent the boat from drifting sideways when 
>>>>>>> reaching.
>>>>>>> The only time a centerboard is not really needed is when sailing 
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> wind.
>>>>>>> Of course, it doesn't really matter if you are not trying to get to 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> specific destination such as when racing. If you don't care about 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> drift, then leave it up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hank
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/8/07, KUHN, LELAND wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Bud,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I've only sailed the Rhodes for a year, so I hope I'm not
>>>>>>> giving you bad
>>>>>>> > advice.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If I want to point into the wind as much as possible, I'll put the
>>>>>>> > centerboard all the way down. I'll also use the traveler and
>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>> > leads to flatten the sails. I've found that it's rare that I
>>>>>>> need that
>>>>>>> > extra five degrees into the wind to get to where I want to go.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The centerboard can be used as a depth finder, but even with
>>>>>>> the soft
>>>>>>> > mud bottom of the Chesapeake, you never know what you're going
>>>>>>> to hit.
>>>>>>> > At the very least it will knock off your bottom paint.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The centerboard acts as a pivot point, allowing you to make
>>>>>>> sharper
>>>>>>> > turns. Don't really need it for tacking but could come in handy
>>>>>>> > motoring around the marina. The boat turns sharp enough for me
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> > the board down.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Depending on your point-of-sail, wind, waves, and current; the
>>>>>>> > centerboard will help balance the boat and take pressure off
>>>>>>> the tiller.
>>>>>>> > I notice this really helps if I have too much sail out. I usually
>>>>>>> > adjust the sails to balance the boat.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > As a newbie, I constantly check my speed to see what works best
>>>>>>> in all
>>>>>>> > conditions. I have put the board up and down in every
>>>>>>> condition, and I
>>>>>>> > am convinced that the drag from the centerboard will always
>>>>>>> slow you
>>>>>>> > down. In most cases, I believe the centerboard's ability to
>>>>>>> keep you
>>>>>>> > sailing in a straight line doesn't make up for the decrease in
>>>>>>> speed. I
>>>>>>> > might be wrong on that last statement.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In my limited experience, the centerboard is a tool that you
>>>>>>> rarely need
>>>>>>> > and will slow you down. I guess what surprised me was that most
>>>>>>> boats
>>>>>>> > sail fastest on a close reach, due to the opposing pressures
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> > sails and keel (squeezing a watermelon seed analogy). On a
>>>>>>> close reach
>>>>>>> > with a Rhodes, you will still go faster with the centerboard up.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, reread the first
>>>>>>> > sentence. :)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Lee
>>>>>>> > 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>>>>>>> > Crab Alley (Kent Island, MD)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> > From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>>>>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:18 AM
>>>>>>> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Bud,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I'll add my 2 cents, in short: upwind all down, downwind all up.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The Rhodes has a very light, balanced helm. With a large (175)
>>>>>>> headsail
>>>>>>> > and
>>>>>>> > smaller (not-newer vertical battened) main there can be a
>>>>>>> tendancy to
>>>>>>> > leeward helm in light air. As the boat heels when the breeze
>>>>>>> picks up
>>>>>>> > this
>>>>>>> > is mitigated. So with the sailplan center of effort (CE)
>>>>>>> forward (the
>>>>>>> > rig
>>>>>>> > described above) the underwater fin's center of lateral resistance
>>>>>>> > (CLR),
>>>>>>> > which can be adjusted by the centerboard, also needs to be as
>>>>>>> forward as
>>>>>>> > possible.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Another of the many advantages to having a centerboard is that
>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>> > change the CLR while underway by adjusting the board. In
>>>>>>> heavier air,
>>>>>>> > when
>>>>>>> > you would expose less area on the headsail going to windward,
>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>> > balance by raising the centerboard just a little.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > PT
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> > From: "Mary Lou Troy"
>>>>>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > > Bud,
>>>>>>> > > I think it's just about vertical. Unless you are sailing in a
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> > > weedy area, I don't think having the pennant exposed is a
>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>> > > It's just as likely to get fouled by growth in the slot.
>>>>>>> Our's seems
>>>>>>> > > to stay cleaner the more we use it. We always pull the board
>>>>>>> up at
>>>>>>> > > anchor or when we leave the boat in the slip but sailing
>>>>>>> upwind it is
>>>>>>> > > always down as far as it will go. As Wally said, as we move
>>>>>>> off the
>>>>>>> > > wind we start pulling the board up.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Mary Lou
>>>>>>> > > 1991 R22 Fretless
>>>>>>> > > Rock Hall, MD
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > At 08:39 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>> > > >Thanks to all who responded! Mary Lou - when you say all the
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> > > >down, you mean the CB is nearly vertical?
>>>>>>> > > >Do you run into any problems with the pennant line or sheaves
>>>>>>> > > >exposed in that running configuration?
>>>>>>> > > >I had thought the sheaves might get "gunked up" if they were
>>>>>>> exposed.
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > >Thanks again,
>>>>>>> > > >Bud
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > >Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>>>>>>> > > >
>>>>>>> > > >>Bud,
>>>>>>> > > >>Fretless is a 1991. We usually sail with the board all the way
>>>>>>> > > >>down. Exceptions are downwind or very shallow water.
>>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>> > > >>Mary Lou
>>>>>>> > > >>1991 R22 Fretless
>>>>>>> > > >>Rock Hall, MD
>>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>> > > >>At 09:35 PM 3/6/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>> > > >>>Rummy,
>>>>>>> > > >>> I have a 1990 R22, and I am pretty sure I do not have a
>>>>>>> "diamond"
>>>>>>> > board.
>>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>Thanks,
>>>>>>> > > >>>-Bud
>>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>>Bud,
>>>>>>> > > >>>>It depends on what year and centerboard design you have?
>>>>>>> > > >>>>Rummy
>>>>>>> > > >>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **************************************
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>>>>>>> > > >>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>>>>> > > >>>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>__________________________________________________
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>>>>>>> > > >>>
>>>>>>> > > >>>
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>>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>>> > > >>>3/5/2007 9:41 AM
>>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>> > > >>
>>>>>>> > > >>__________________________________________________
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>>>>>>> > > >>
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