[Rhodes22-list] Define: Lee Helm

[Bill Effros]

Hank, Peter,

Thank you.

Rummy says (I think) that the boat has weather helm--when overpowered it 
turns into the wind.

It seems to me that in either case the solution is to reduce the amount 
of sail.

You will actually go faster in the direction you intend, almost upright, 
with less sail, when your boat is overpowered.

For me the big issue is trying to keep my rudder neutral.  If the rudder 
is knifing through the water with no pressure on either side I will go 
faster, and I can actually plane in certain circumstances.

What am I missing?

Bill Effros

Hank wrote:
> Bill,
>
> As I understand it, Lee helm is when the boats falls off when overpowered
> such as by a gust of wind.  Weather helm is when the boat comes up 
> into the
> wind.  Lee helm can be a dangerous condition as it tends to put the 
> vessel
> more broadside to the wind and can result in a knockdown.  Weather 
> helm is
> safer as it brings the boat upright and allows you to reset the sails.
>
> Hank
>
>
> On 3/9/07, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>
>> Slim,
>>
>> How do you define "Lee Helm"?
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> PS -- Far from beating this topic to death, (no pun intended, right?)
>> this is what sailing is really about, and we don't discuss it enough.
>> Every answer is helpful, and many have never been posted previously.
>>
>> Slim wrote:
>> > I've been trying to resist jumping in on this thread because we can 
>> beat
>> it
>> > to death, but I've played around a lot with different amounts of board
>> and
>> > different amounts canvas and even of mast rake to try to eliminate the
>> > characteristic lee helm of the Rhodes22 rigged with IMF and 175 and a
>> > diamond board.  I've been able to make some improvements but mainly 
>> I've
>> > settled for the fact that lee helm happens, but only in light air 
>> and I
>> can
>> > cope with that.  I've found that I rarely drop the board all the way
>> down.
>> > When I'm pointing, it's usually about 3/4 down.  I haven't found that
>> the
>> > board all the way down moves the CLR forward since it doesn't 
>> improve my
>> lee
>> > helm.  I also think the faster you go, the less board you
>> need/want.  Even
>> > with the board all the way up there's still a "shoal draft keel" of
>> sorts to
>> > prevent leeway sliding, albeit not as effective.  Sometimes I pull 
>> it up
>> to
>> > reduce heeling until I can reduce sail.  Sometimes I'm just lazy.  
>> It's
>> > always up when I'm going downwind.
>> >
>> > I'm a lover not a fighter.  Sorry, I mean I'm a cruiser not a 
>> racer, but
>> I
>> > still want to get good performance from my boat.  Every boat's a 
>> little
>> > different and every sailor has individual goals so it boils down to
>> > experimentation and fine tuning, but most importantly it's the fun
>> factor
>> > and the comfort factor--and you're the captain--so you get to decide.
>> >
>> > BTW, sailing faster on one tack over the other might be uneven shroud
>> > tuning.
>> >
>> > Slim Chance and the Gamblers
>> > Fandango '90 Rhodes22
>> > Lake Minnetonka, MN
>> >
>> > On 3/8/07 8:41 AM, "KUHN, LELAND" <LKUHN at cnmc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Bud,
>> >>
>> >> I've only sailed the Rhodes for a year, so I hope I'm not giving you
>> bad
>> >> advice.
>> >>
>> >> If I want to point into the wind as much as possible, I'll put the
>> >> centerboard all the way down.  I'll also use the traveler and inside
>> >> leads to flatten the sails.  I've found that it's rare that I need 
>> that
>> >> extra five degrees into the wind to get to where I want to go.
>> >>
>> >> The centerboard can be used as a depth finder, but even with the soft
>> >> mud bottom of the Chesapeake, you never know what you're going to 
>> hit.
>> >> At the very least it will knock off your bottom paint.
>> >>
>> >> The centerboard acts as a pivot point, allowing you to make sharper
>> >> turns.  Don't really need it for tacking but could come in handy
>> >> motoring around the marina.  The boat turns sharp enough for me 
>> without
>> >> the board down.
>> >>
>> >> Depending on your point-of-sail, wind, waves, and current; the
>> >> centerboard will help balance the boat and take pressure off the
>> tiller.
>> >> I notice this really helps if I have too much sail out.  I usually
>> >> adjust the sails to balance the boat.
>> >>
>> >> As a newbie, I constantly check my speed to see what works best in 
>> all
>> >> conditions.  I have put the board up and down in every condition, 
>> and I
>> >> am convinced that the drag from the centerboard will always slow you
>> >> down.  In most cases, I believe the centerboard's ability to keep you
>> >> sailing in a straight line doesn't make up for the decrease in
>> speed.  I
>> >> might be wrong on that last statement.
>> >>
>> >> In my limited experience, the centerboard is a tool that you rarely
>> need
>> >> and will slow you down.  I guess what surprised me was that most 
>> boats
>> >> sail fastest on a close reach, due to the opposing pressures from the
>> >> sails and keel (squeezing a watermelon seed analogy).  On a close 
>> reach
>> >> with a Rhodes, you will still go faster with the centerboard up.
>> >>
>> >> If it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, reread the first
>> >> sentence. :)
>> >>
>> >> Lee
>> >> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
>> >> Crab Alley (Kent Island, MD)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:18 AM
>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>> >>
>> >> Bud,
>> >>
>> >> I'll add my 2 cents, in short:  upwind all down, downwind all up.
>> >>
>> >> The Rhodes has a very light, balanced helm.  With a large (175)
>> headsail
>> >> and
>> >> smaller (not-newer vertical battened) main there can be a tendancy to
>> >> leeward helm in light air.  As the boat heels when the breeze 
>> picks up
>> >> this
>> >> is mitigated.   So with the sailplan center of effort (CE) forward 
>> (the
>> >> rig
>> >> described above) the underwater fin's center of lateral resistance
>> >> (CLR),
>> >> which can be adjusted by the centerboard, also needs to be as forward
>> as
>> >> possible.
>> >>
>> >> Another of the many advantages to having a centerboard is that you 
>> can
>> >> change the CLR while underway by adjusting the board.  In heavier 
>> air,
>> >> when
>> >> you would expose less area on the headsail going to windward, you can
>> >> balance by raising the centerboard just a little.
>> >>
>> >> PT
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:42 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Bud,
>> >>> I think it's just about vertical. Unless you are sailing in a very
>> >>> weedy area, I don't think having the pennant exposed is a problem.
>> >>> It's just as likely to get fouled by growth in the slot. Our's seems
>> >>> to stay cleaner the more we use it. We always pull the board up at
>> >>> anchor or when we leave the boat in the slip but sailing upwind 
>> it is
>> >>> always down as far as it will go. As Wally said, as we move off the
>> >>> wind we start pulling the board up.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mary Lou
>> >>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>> >>> Rock Hall, MD
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> At 08:39 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Thanks to all who responded!   Mary Lou - when you say all the way
>> >>>> down, you mean the CB is nearly vertical?
>> >>>> Do you run into any problems with the pennant line or sheaves
>> >>>> exposed in that running configuration?
>> >>>> I had thought the sheaves might get "gunked up" if they were 
>> exposed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks again,
>> >>>> Bud
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Bud,
>> >>>>> Fretless is a 1991. We usually sail with the board all the way
>> >>>>> down. Exceptions are downwind or very shallow water.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Mary Lou
>> >>>>> 1991 R22  Fretless
>> >>>>> Rock Hall, MD
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> At 09:35 PM 3/6/2007, you wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Rummy,
>> >>>>>>  I have a 1990 R22, and I am pretty sure I do not have a 
>> "diamond"
>> >>>>>>
>> >> board.
>> >>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>> -Bud
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Bud,
>> >>>>>>> It depends on what year and centerboard design you have?
>> >>>>>>> Rummy
>> >>>>>>> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
>> >>>>>>> offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free
>> >>>>>>> from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >>>>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date:
>> >>>>>> 3/5/2007 9:41 AM
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> >>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/713 - Release Date:
>> >>>> 3/7/2007 9:24 AM
>> >>>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>
>> >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any 
>> attachments,
>> is
>> >> for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
>> confidential
>> >> and privileged information.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure
>> or
>> >> distribution is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,
>> please
>> >> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the
>> original
>> >> message.
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >
>> >
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>