[Rhodes22-list] Define: Lee Helm
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Fri Mar 9 11:42:00 EST 2007
Thanks, Mary Lou,
I replied too soon. Your explanation is my understanding, also.
Bill Effros
Mary Lou Troy wrote:
> Actually a boat doesn't have to be overpowered to have lee helm. If
> tiller pressure is required to keep the boat up toward the wind, you
> have lee helm. In other words if you are sailing and let go of the
> tiller and the boat falls off the wind it is lee helm. If the boat
> comes up into the wind it is weather helm. I believe Stan has said
> that an ideally tuned and balanced R22 will have neutral to slight lee
> helm in light air and will develop slight weather helm in stronger winds.
>
> Mary Lou
> 1991 R22 Fretless
> Rock Hall, MD
>
> At 11:18 AM 3/9/2007, you wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> As I understand it, Lee helm is when the boats falls off when
>> overpowered
>> such as by a gust of wind. Weather helm is when the boat comes up
>> into the
>> wind. Lee helm can be a dangerous condition as it tends to put the
>> vessel
>> more broadside to the wind and can result in a knockdown. Weather
>> helm is
>> safer as it brings the boat upright and allows you to reset the sails.
>>
>> Hank
>>
>>
>> On 3/9/07, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Slim,
>>>
>>> How do you define "Lee Helm"?
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> PS -- Far from beating this topic to death, (no pun intended, right?)
>>> this is what sailing is really about, and we don't discuss it enough.
>>> Every answer is helpful, and many have never been posted previously.
>>>
>>> Slim wrote:
>>> > I've been trying to resist jumping in on this thread because we
>>> can beat
>>> it
>>> > to death, but I've played around a lot with different amounts of
>>> board
>>> and
>>> > different amounts canvas and even of mast rake to try to eliminate
>>> the
>>> > characteristic lee helm of the Rhodes22 rigged with IMF and 175 and a
>>> > diamond board. I've been able to make some improvements but
>>> mainly I've
>>> > settled for the fact that lee helm happens, but only in light air
>>> and I
>>> can
>>> > cope with that. I've found that I rarely drop the board all the way
>>> down.
>>> > When I'm pointing, it's usually about 3/4 down. I haven't found that
>>> the
>>> > board all the way down moves the CLR forward since it doesn't
>>> improve my
>>> lee
>>> > helm. I also think the faster you go, the less board you
>>> need/want. Even
>>> > with the board all the way up there's still a "shoal draft keel" of
>>> sorts to
>>> > prevent leeway sliding, albeit not as effective. Sometimes I pull
>>> it up
>>> to
>>> > reduce heeling until I can reduce sail. Sometimes I'm just lazy.
>>> It's
>>> > always up when I'm going downwind.
>>> >
>>> > I'm a lover not a fighter. Sorry, I mean I'm a cruiser not a
>>> racer, but
>>> I
>>> > still want to get good performance from my boat. Every boat's a
>>> little
>>> > different and every sailor has individual goals so it boils down to
>>> > experimentation and fine tuning, but most importantly it's the fun
>>> factor
>>> > and the comfort factor--and you're the captain--so you get to decide.
>>> >
>>> > BTW, sailing faster on one tack over the other might be uneven shroud
>>> > tuning.
>>> >
>>> > Slim Chance and the Gamblers
>>> > Fandango '90 Rhodes22
>>> > Lake Minnetonka, MN
>>> >
>>> > On 3/8/07 8:41 AM, "KUHN, LELAND" <LKUHN at cnmc.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Bud,
>>> >>
>>> >> I've only sailed the Rhodes for a year, so I hope I'm not giving you
>>> bad
>>> >> advice.
>>> >>
>>> >> If I want to point into the wind as much as possible, I'll put the
>>> >> centerboard all the way down. I'll also use the traveler and inside
>>> >> leads to flatten the sails. I've found that it's rare that I
>>> need that
>>> >> extra five degrees into the wind to get to where I want to go.
>>> >>
>>> >> The centerboard can be used as a depth finder, but even with the
>>> soft
>>> >> mud bottom of the Chesapeake, you never know what you're going to
>>> hit.
>>> >> At the very least it will knock off your bottom paint.
>>> >>
>>> >> The centerboard acts as a pivot point, allowing you to make sharper
>>> >> turns. Don't really need it for tacking but could come in handy
>>> >> motoring around the marina. The boat turns sharp enough for me
>>> without
>>> >> the board down.
>>> >>
>>> >> Depending on your point-of-sail, wind, waves, and current; the
>>> >> centerboard will help balance the boat and take pressure off the
>>> tiller.
>>> >> I notice this really helps if I have too much sail out. I usually
>>> >> adjust the sails to balance the boat.
>>> >>
>>> >> As a newbie, I constantly check my speed to see what works best
>>> in all
>>> >> conditions. I have put the board up and down in every condition,
>>> and I
>>> >> am convinced that the drag from the centerboard will always slow you
>>> >> down. In most cases, I believe the centerboard's ability to keep
>>> you
>>> >> sailing in a straight line doesn't make up for the decrease in
>>> speed. I
>>> >> might be wrong on that last statement.
>>> >>
>>> >> In my limited experience, the centerboard is a tool that you rarely
>>> need
>>> >> and will slow you down. I guess what surprised me was that most
>>> boats
>>> >> sail fastest on a close reach, due to the opposing pressures from
>>> the
>>> >> sails and keel (squeezing a watermelon seed analogy). On a close
>>> reach
>>> >> with a Rhodes, you will still go faster with the centerboard up.
>>> >>
>>> >> If it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, reread the first
>>> >> sentence. :)
>>> >>
>>> >> Lee
>>> >> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>>> >> Crab Alley (Kent Island, MD)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:18 AM
>>> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>> >>
>>> >> Bud,
>>> >>
>>> >> I'll add my 2 cents, in short: upwind all down, downwind all up.
>>> >>
>>> >> The Rhodes has a very light, balanced helm. With a large (175)
>>> headsail
>>> >> and
>>> >> smaller (not-newer vertical battened) main there can be a
>>> tendancy to
>>> >> leeward helm in light air. As the boat heels when the breeze
>>> picks up
>>> >> this
>>> >> is mitigated. So with the sailplan center of effort (CE)
>>> forward (the
>>> >> rig
>>> >> described above) the underwater fin's center of lateral resistance
>>> >> (CLR),
>>> >> which can be adjusted by the centerboard, also needs to be as
>>> forward
>>> as
>>> >> possible.
>>> >>
>>> >> Another of the many advantages to having a centerboard is that
>>> you can
>>> >> change the CLR while underway by adjusting the board. In heavier
>>> air,
>>> >> when
>>> >> you would expose less area on the headsail going to windward, you
>>> can
>>> >> balance by raising the centerboard just a little.
>>> >>
>>> >> PT
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>>> >> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:42 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CenterBoard Angle
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> Bud,
>>> >>> I think it's just about vertical. Unless you are sailing in a very
>>> >>> weedy area, I don't think having the pennant exposed is a problem.
>>> >>> It's just as likely to get fouled by growth in the slot. Our's
>>> seems
>>> >>> to stay cleaner the more we use it. We always pull the board up at
>>> >>> anchor or when we leave the boat in the slip but sailing upwind
>>> it is
>>> >>> always down as far as it will go. As Wally said, as we move off the
>>> >>> wind we start pulling the board up.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Mary Lou
>>> >>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>>> >>> Rock Hall, MD
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> At 08:39 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Thanks to all who responded! Mary Lou - when you say all the way
>>> >>>> down, you mean the CB is nearly vertical?
>>> >>>> Do you run into any problems with the pennant line or sheaves
>>> >>>> exposed in that running configuration?
>>> >>>> I had thought the sheaves might get "gunked up" if they were
>>> exposed.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Thanks again,
>>> >>>> Bud
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Bud,
>>> >>>>> Fretless is a 1991. We usually sail with the board all the way
>>> >>>>> down. Exceptions are downwind or very shallow water.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Mary Lou
>>> >>>>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>>> >>>>> Rock Hall, MD
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> At 09:35 PM 3/6/2007, you wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Rummy,
>>> >>>>>> I have a 1990 R22, and I am pretty sure I do not have a
>>> "diamond"
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >> board.
>>> >>
>>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>>> -Bud
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> R22RumRunner at aol.com wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Bud,
>>> >>>>>>> It depends on what year and centerboard design you have?
>>> >>>>>>> Rummy
>>> >>>>>>> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
>>> >>>>>>> offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
>>> >>>>>>> from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
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>>> >>>>>> 3/5/2007 9:41 AM
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>> __________________________________________________
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