[Rhodes22-list] 21st Century 'Ernie Pyle"

Tue Apr 15 21:58:24 EDT 2008

Robert,

This just popped-up on my radar screen and is timely for our discussion.

http://austinbay.thearenausa.com/insight/home.jsp

I'll digest it tonight and begin anew tomorrow. I'm about a third of the way
through Steven Coll's new book on the  Bin Laden family (Coll is the author
of  "Ghost  Wars" which is a better account of  Afghanistan than  "Wilson")
and so far his rendition of  Middle  Eastern  history is in line with every
other account I've read (and yours).

Good night and good reading!

Brad

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Robert Skinner <robert at squirrelhaven.com>
wrote:

> Brad - Responses in line.
>
> Brad Haslett wrote:
> > Robert,
> > The last sentence says it all, "There is a recognition that we did not
> > understand the extent to which their culture made it difficult to move
> from
> > an authoritarian government to liberal democracy."
> >
> > Where shall we go now?  The world is a small globe - fast airplanes make
> it
> > smaller.  We as a nation are imperfect, but what nation is better?
>  Where do
> > Chinese dissidents who fear for their lives for their involvement in
> > Tienanmen Square have to run?  In what nation can Islam evolve to the
> more
> > enlightened passages of the Koran?  If we as Americans don't believe in
> the
> > spirit of 1776, what hope do we hold for the rest of the world, most of
> > which envies our lifestyle and freedoms?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Spirit of 1776 was based on 200 years of development
> from barely surviving colony to thriving society quite
> able to take care of itself, largely devoid of internal
> frictions and generally appreciative of diverse sources
> and expressions of knowledge.
>
> Not so Iraq.
>
> Iraq is an artificial compendium of tribal factions
> recently (70 years ago) pasted together to deliver oil to
> the European communities and later to a variety of
> industrial nations.
>
> So long as the oil flow was not tampered with, we had
> little care for the treatment of the quasi-nation's
> peoples.  As OPEC grew in power, it became obvious that
> they could take their marbles and leave the game - a
> power shift not to be accepted.
>
> We propped up Saddam as long as he was singing our tune,
> but then he got too big for his britches, did the Kuwait
> thing, and we started looking for the way to edge him out
> of power.
>
> Bush Sr. figured that if he destroyed Saddam's army and
> credibility as a warrior, sanctions and popular pressure
> would force him out.  Didn't work, of course, as Saddam
> was a canny dictator.
>
> One of our first major mistakes was to see Saddam in
> terms of western mores, and his people as yearning for
> Jeffersonian democracy.
>
> Etc., etc...
>
> The point is that we have persisted in trying to deal
> with Saddam, the Iraqis, and other Mid-east leaders as
> if they were westerners.  It ain't so.
>
> And there are as many ways to express democracy as there
> are individuals.  That is part of what democracy is
> about -- not all, but part.
>
> But this is the part that we are tripping over.
>
> We need to recognize that there is a lot of work to do
> to in preparing for our style of democracy.  Even in
> our own country, there are many who do not understand
> or accept the responsibilities of democracy.
>
> Coercion and/or invasion and/or occupation are not
> effective tools in accomplishing this.  Leadership by
> example -- doing the right thing -- is far more
> effective.  Getting along with -- honoring the
> independence of -- our neighbors beats, "If you aren't
> with us, you are against us."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I'm all for realism, including the 'meat' of the article you referenced.
> > But, "where do we go now?"
> >
> > It's easy to focus on the Bush 43 failures and the difficulties of the
> Iraq
> > invasion.  That's one small part of a larger problem.  Solutions?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do the right thing.  Lead by example.  Support emerging
> countries by helping them grow straight.  Build consensus
> among the community of nations rather than saying, "I am
> the decider" to the rest of the world.  Live smaller so
> we do not need to give away out treasure and finest to
> reap resources from the rest of the world.
>
> You have heard this before.  I am required to minimize
> my footprint.  My contribution.
>
> And when dealing with vandals (AKA terrorists) shoot
> straight and fast.  No religion or politic that advocates
> murder of innocents has any validity.  This ain't PC, it's
> basic to our survival.
>
> /Robert
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Robert Skinner <
> robert at squirrelhaven.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > I am also pleased and proud of what our forces have
> > > accomplished, and moreover, how they have done so.
> > > We have put our finest in harms way, and they have
> > > conducted themselves like ladies and gentlemen.  The
> > > lapses from the highest standards of behavior that
> > > we could ask for are all the more noteable for their
> > > scarcity.  Yon's work is promising.
> > >
> > > I have had no argument with the boots on the ground,
> > > unless they have Blackwater insignia.
> > >
> > > That said, I have had and continue to have
> > > reservations about the floating definitions of the
> > > mission(s) that our armed forces have been tasked
> > > with.
> > >
> > > I firmly believe that the form of democracy that
> > > grew in the United States requires a couple of
> > > centuries of substrate civilization and tolerance
> > > to grow and find its full expression.
> > >
> > > The way in which the free Iraqi codify their use of
> > > that freedom will inevitably be different than the US
> > > Constitution.  For example, it is perfectly
> > > reasonable for them to decide to break up what was an
> > > artificial joining of disparate ethologies.  In any
> > > case, it is their country, and they must be free to
> > > evolve or reshape it as necessary.
> > >
> > > The following article, despite its origin on the left
> > > coast, has some meat, as it shows an evolving realism
> > > among the military leaders as they negotiate their
> > > way through the minefield of manifold mission
> > > statements from Bush 43.
> > >
> > > It is short, and not so much political as an
> > > interesting glimpse of the current military thinking
> > > about the situation in Iraq.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-petraeus13apr13,1,6444719.story
> > >
> > > /Robert
> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > > Brad Haslett wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Michael Yon is at 17 on the list at Amazon today and rising fast (up
> 250
> > > in
> > > > one week and it hasn't been released yet!).  Trust me, this is not
> > > > propaganda.  Whatever you think of 43 or the war in Iraq, you at
> least
> > > > should read about the experience and professionalism of our troops
> and
> > > > especially the Marines.  The photo on the book cover still brings
> tears
> > > to
> > > > my eyes every time I see it (the story behind the photo is sad). Yon
> was
> > > > banned for awhile by the military for 'calling the shots as he saw
> them'
> > > and
> > > > is as impartial a witness as one can find for this national
> experience.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0980076323?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0980076323
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > > --
> > > Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven"
> > > Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
> > > s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
> --
> Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven"
> Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
> s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>