[Rhodes22-list] Michael Meltzer & Herb - Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and clar

Herb Parsons hparsons at parsonsys.com
Thu Apr 17 15:54:37 EDT 2008 

   Yes, it most certainly is a recap and restatement of the regs.Your
   statement that it is "designed to eliminate the errors inherent in
   individual interpretation of the regs" says it it. It's an
   interpretation of the regs.
   As far as my enjoyment of typing, you asked me a question. I answered.
   Your information is incorrect Michael. The web sites in question
   specifically state that they are NOT the regulations. If they are NOT
   the regulations, then what are they?
   You make the idiotic statement that I "may go quoting the regs and
   your interpretations rather than providing  a reference to an approved
   source of information",  but you're ignoring the fact that I DID
   provide a link to the an approved source of information.
   I'll do it again.
The office regs can be found here -
[1]http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm. They're harder
to understand, but much more specific.

Maybe you'll be so kind as to answer my question. Is my steaming light, which i
s about 6' down my mast, legal?

According to the website you provided, it is not.
According to the regs, it is.

   Michael D. Weisner wrote:

Herb,

I did read everything.  The distinction that I am trying to make is that the
materials on the site are not a "recap" or restatement of the regs.  The
links to the regs, the CFR, etc. are available on the site.  The graphic is
produced under contract for the USCG and is agency reviewed and approved, as
is the entire site.  It is designed to eliminate the errors inherent in
individual interpretation of the regs.  You may go on quoting the regs and
your interpretations to folks rather than providing a reference to an
approved source of information.

We do agree on one thing.  There appears to be no sense to pursuing this
discussion any further or do you just really enjoy typing that much?

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Herb Parsons" [2]<hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
2:39 PM


What is your point Michael? I agree with everything you said. You asked
me what I meant, I explained. The web site you provided are not the
regulations, they are a recap (or an easy to understand agency approved
source of information).

You really DO need to go back and re-read what I said. I never said
anything like the site was "interpretations from another internet guy",
I said they were BETTER than a interpretations from another internet guy.

Exactly - "

It's a better source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on
the internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs"."

But, I'll repeat myself, it's not the official regulations. The
information will certainly work for people if they do exactly what the
web site said, but they're not complete, nor are they completely
accurate (as I stated, my boat that has a steaming light about 6' down
from the masthead doesn't look like the picture, but it's legal).

So, which part of your query to me did I not answer, or which part did I
incorrectly answer, or do you just really enjoy typing that much?

Michael D. Weisner wrote:


Herb,

First of all, quoting of the rules the way you did does not help anyone
to
understand the actual requirements.  Graphics still convey the
information
best.  If you configure your installation per the USCGBoating.org site
you
will not have any problem.

As a side point, the site that you list as "the regs" is linked to from
the
USCGBoating.org site, if you looked.  They also have links to the CFR,
which, if you want to be technical about it, "is the primary standard
since
it is law.  The problem with the "rules" of the "laws" is that lay folks
may
not be qualified to properly interpret the verbiage and may make mistakes
as
a result.

I have always felt that it is most important to reference a usable, easy
to
understand and agency approved source for such information.  The
USCGBoating.org site fulfills all of these requirements.  They are not
interpretations from "another Internet guy."

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Herb Parsons" [3]<hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17,
2008
1:47 PM



Wow, that didn't format very well - so much for cutting and pasting.

I probably should also say, if someone wants to get REALLY picky, even
the web site I provided aren't the official regs. They're a copy, and an
attempt is made to be accurate, but even that site says:

"Those seeking official versions of the Navigation Rules should refer to
the International Navigational Rules Act of 1977 (Public Law 95-75, 91
Stat. 308, or 33 U.S.C. 1601-1608), and, the Inland Navigation Rules Act
of 1980 (Public Law 96-591, 94 Stat. 3415, 33 U.S.C. 2001-2038)."

The interpretation from just another internet guy is this - that's the
printed version.

Herb Parsons wrote:



Yes Michael, it's an official web site. But it's NOT the regs. Take the
test, trust me, they don't ask any questions about what's on the web
site. They ask specific questions about the regulations, and the source
is the printed manual, not their website.

Here's an example: The web site says that "If your power-driven vessel
is less than 65.5 feet/20 meters in length, then it must display
navigation lights per Figure 1."  Figure 1 then shows a picture of a
sailboat and a powerboat. The sailboat has a steaming light mounted on
the very top of the mast. That's OK, but that's NOT what the regs say.

What the regs say specifically are:
RULE 23:
POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY

(a)  A power-driven vessel <../pops/def3b_PDV.htm> underway shall
exhibit (picture <../pops/nr_23a.htm>):

         1. a masthead light <../pops/def21a_masthead.htm> forward;
         2. a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the
forward
            one; except that a vessel of less than 50 meters
            <../pops/nr_23aii.htm> in length shall not be obliged to
            exhibit such a light but may do so;
         3. sidelights <../pops/def21b_side.htm>: and
         4. a sternlight <../pops/def21c_stern.htm>.


But that's not the end of the story, there are the different size
exceptions (which the website you mentioned have included in its
recap);
but, you must know the definition of some of these terms. For instance
"masthead light":

=====


        Rule 21 - Definitions

   1.
      "Masthead light" means a white light placed over the fore and aft
      centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of
      the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from
      right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the
      vessel, /except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length
      the masthead light shall be placed as nearly as practicable to
the
      fore and aft centerline of the vessel./

=====

(which, by the way, means my memory was wrong, it wasn't 270 degrees,
it
was 225, my test was a long time ago). It does NOT have to be on the
top
of the mast as pictured, it can be anywhere on the boat, as long as it
fits the above definition.

The picture given in the web site your provided just makes it easier to
understand the jargon of the office regs. It may be an official web
site, but it's NOT the official regs. It's a recap of them.

The office regs can be found here -
[4]http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm. They're harder
to understand, but much more specific.

Your statement about "some guy on the internet" is the same as mine;
however, the site you gave isn't the "primary", it's better than a guy
on the internet, but it's still not the regs.

Wouldn't I hate it if some bozo took that picture and told me that my
steaming light that's not mounted on the top of the mast is not legal
because the website shows a picture of the masthead light on top of the
mast, and mine is about a few feet down from the top (as are most small
boat masthead lights)?

That's what I meant, it's a recap. Better than advice from me, but
still
not the official regs.



Michael D. Weisner wrote:




Herb,

What exactly do you mean by your comment: "it's still a recap of the
'official regs'"?  USCGBoating.org is an official CG site
(Registrant:US
Coast Guard, Office of Boating Safety) and it contains the federal and
state
regs.  In addition, it contains illustrations that graphically
represent
the
regs that have been reviewed by the CG.  It is most certainly better
than
"some guy on the internet."

Whenever possible, I appreciate a "primary" information source.

Mike
s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
       Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Herb Parsons" [5]<hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
16,
2008
3:31 PM





Gotcha. However, you DO realize that's not the regs. It's a better
source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on the
internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs".

Michael D. Weisner wrote:





Herb,

It isn't that you stated anything wrong, it is simply the original
USCG
source of the information in a somewhat easier to read and
understand
format
(including pictures.)

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Herb Parsons" [6]<hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
16,
2008
2:12 PM






What part of that did I state incorrectly? Looks like the page
(which
is
a recap of the original regs) says different than what I stated?

Michael D. Weisner wrote:






Herb, Bob, etc.,

Please read rules on USCG site:
[7]http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm
This page is very easy to read and understand.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Herb Parsons" [8]<hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Tuesday, April
15,
2008
10:41 PM







Sorry Bob, but I think you mis-read the regs.

A sailboat under power is a powerboat.

A powerboat between 12 meters and 20 meters has to display a
separate
stern light (90 degrees, 45 degrees each direction) and steaming
light
(270 degrees, 135 each direction)

A sailboat between 7 meters and 20 meters can use a single 360
degree
light as a combination steaming/stern light.

A sailboat under 7 meters (the Rhodes 22 fits that) can use a
flashlight
shining on the sail as your steaming light, but how un-cool is
THAT?

However, if it's under power, it's a powerboat. If it's a
powerboat,
it
has to have a steaming light.



Bob Keller wrote:







Ed,
I think the 360 as an anchor light is required but the 360 as a
steaming
light is optional/overkill.  The R-22 only needs the port,
starboard
and
stern lights while underway, doesn't need anything on the
mast...
The
CG
link confirmed that.  Of course, the rules might be different on
Lake
Hartwell since even Y-valves are not allowed there.
Bob K








Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:38:02 -0700> From:
[9]ekroposki at charter.net>
To:
[10]rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael
Meltzer
&
Herb - Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and
clarification>
 > > Bob Keller and Dana...> > Michael Meltzer is our resident
expert
on
what is legal regarding lights. > So 'USCG Captain' Meltzer
what
are
the
correct answers to Bob and Dana's> questions?> > This much I
know,
the
lighting pattern is different for different length> boats. Why?
so
knowledgeable 'Captains' can tell what kind of boat it is. >
Herb,
isn't
that a question for the 'Captain's' exam.> > As to Anchor light
being
visible on a 22 foot boat for 360 degrees, I do not> think that
it
has
to be a single light. On the R22 there is a light on the>
'stern'
when
added to the light up the mast, together they qualify as 360>
degrees
of
white light. Is that how the R22 is legal? I suspect that Stan>
just
might know what qualifies as legal lights.> > Now Bob K. has







t







 o find out if his 360 degrees of masthead light on a 22 foot>
boat
screws up the Coast Guard's intent in lighting( I already know
the>
correct answer, but does he?). The Coast Guard does publish a
small
booklet> on lighting, just do not know where my copy is quickly.
Also,
I
believe> these questions are answered in 'Chapman's'. When I
find
my
copies, I will> seek yea answers. This is comes up every so
often
on
this
forum so the> answers are probably in the archives. > > Ed K>
Greenville,
SC, USA> attachment for Slim:> >
[11]http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif > >
 >
 >
Hi
there, I bought an 87 R22 last year and absolutely love it. I'm>
currently working on getting it ready for the season. The mast
is
wired
for> an anchor light, but whatever was there must have busted
off
before
I got> the boat. There is also a light fixture facing forward
about a
foot from> the top of the mast, but it wasn't working last year
either.>
 > I have two questions:> > 1. The an







ch







 or light and steaming are separate lights, right? My>
understanding
is
that an anchor light has to be visible from all directions,> and
the
steaming light is the light facing forward that must be on when>
motoring.> > 2. Any recommendations on new lighting? Is there a
combined
LED light that> will serve both purposes?> > Thanks,> Dana> > >
 >
[12]http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif
 > --
 >
View
this message in context:
[13]http://www.nabble.com/Masthead-lights-%28anchor---steaming%29-tp16655218p16
656988.html>
Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.> >
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References

   1. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
   2. mailto:hparsons at parsonsys.com
   3. mailto:hparsons at parsonsys.com
   4. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
   5. mailto:hparsons at parsonsys.com
   6. mailto:hparsons at parsonsys.com
   7. http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm
   8. mailto:hparsons at parsonsys.com
   9. mailto:ekroposki at charter.net
  10. mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  11. http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif
  12. http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif
  13. http://www.nabble.com/Masthead-lights-%28anchor---steaming%29-tp16655218p16656988.html
  14. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  15. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  16. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
  17. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  18. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  19. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  20. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  21. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  22. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  23. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  24. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  25. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  26. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  27. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  28. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  29. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  30. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  31. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  32. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  33. mailto:Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
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