[Rhodes22-list] Michael Meltzer & Herb - Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and clar
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Thu Apr 17 17:01:02 EDT 2008
On a slightly calmer note Michael:
The web site you keep referring to has the title (on its page)
"Federal Requirements and Safety Tips for Recreational Boats"
If you'll look at the tabs (Safety is highlighted on the page as you
read it), you'll notice the one that says Regulations.
That tab will take you to a list of links for regulations (not
requirements or tips). Clicking the "Navigation Rules" will take you to
a link to the online regulations.You'll be prompted that you're leaving
the "Office of Boating Safety" website, but don't worry, you'll be taken
to the Use Department of Homeland Security - United States Coast Guard
web site. Hopefully, that's official enough.
This "guy on the internet" (that would be me) offers the following
interpretation for you Rhodies:
Because your boat is under 7 meters, technically, while you're under
sail, you don't have to have ANY lights at all (might have to under
state regulations though). I wouldn't recommend it though.
If you go that option, you should have a flashlight to shine on your
sail, and you better have it ready to "exhibit in sufficient time to
prevent collision".
Both web sites support that.
If you're under power, you're no longer a "sailing vessel" but a
"power-driven vessel", and have to have proper lighting.
Both websites support that.
If the flashlight rule sounds a little vague, get used to it. That's the
way all of the regulations are. Maritime law is funny that way, they
tend to never hold anyone blameless.
Anyone that thinks all of this is technical nonsense really should be
careful. My guess is that if you strictly followed the rule about the
flashlight on your Rhodes, especially in a high traffic area, chances
are decent you could get stopped, possibly cited (want to argue with a
Coast Guard official writing a citation that you shined the light
quickly enough to avoid a collision? - I wouldn't want to).
On the other hand, my guess is that the same CG official would ignore
the sailboat that turns on his anchor light AND his steaming light while
headed to his slip to make sure he's as visible as possible (technically
a violation, since he's not anchored).
The USCG website has an interesting bit of information, it's one of the
things I like to refer people to when they talk about having "right of
way" (they don't, the people that make the rules say "the rules don not
confer upon any vessel the right of way"). The purpose of the
regulations are to avoid collisions (thus, the name colregs). That same
FAC includes this "Navigation Rules should be regarded as a /code of
conduct/ and not a /bill of rights/. "
Advice well taken.
Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> Herb,
>
> I did read everything. The distinction that I am trying to make is that the
> materials on the site are not a "recap" or restatement of the regs. The
> links to the regs, the CFR, etc. are available on the site. The graphic is
> produced under contract for the USCG and is agency reviewed and approved, as
> is the entire site. It is designed to eliminate the errors inherent in
> individual interpretation of the regs. You may go on quoting the regs and
> your interpretations to folks rather than providing a reference to an
> approved source of information.
>
> We do agree on one thing. There appears to be no sense to pursuing this
> discussion any further or do you just really enjoy typing that much?
>
> Mike
> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> Nissequogue River, NY
>
> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
> 2:39 PM
>
>> What is your point Michael? I agree with everything you said. You asked
>> me what I meant, I explained. The web site you provided are not the
>> regulations, they are a recap (or an easy to understand agency approved
>> source of information).
>>
>> You really DO need to go back and re-read what I said. I never said
>> anything like the site was "interpretations from another internet guy",
>> I said they were BETTER than a interpretations from another internet guy.
>>
>> Exactly - "
>>
>> It's a better source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on
>> the internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs"."
>>
>> But, I'll repeat myself, it's not the official regulations. The
>> information will certainly work for people if they do exactly what the
>> web site said, but they're not complete, nor are they completely
>> accurate (as I stated, my boat that has a steaming light about 6' down
>> from the masthead doesn't look like the picture, but it's legal).
>>
>> So, which part of your query to me did I not answer, or which part did I
>> incorrectly answer, or do you just really enjoy typing that much?
>>
>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>
>>> Herb,
>>>
>>> First of all, quoting of the rules the way you did does not help anyone
>>> to
>>> understand the actual requirements. Graphics still convey the
>>> information
>>> best. If you configure your installation per the USCGBoating.org site
>>> you
>>> will not have any problem.
>>>
>>> As a side point, the site that you list as "the regs" is linked to from
>>> the
>>> USCGBoating.org site, if you looked. They also have links to the CFR,
>>> which, if you want to be technical about it, "is the primary standard
>>> since
>>> it is law. The problem with the "rules" of the "laws" is that lay folks
>>> may
>>> not be qualified to properly interpret the verbiage and may make mistakes
>>> as
>>> a result.
>>>
>>> I have always felt that it is most important to reference a usable, easy
>>> to
>>> understand and agency approved source for such information. The
>>> USCGBoating.org site fulfills all of these requirements. They are not
>>> interpretations from "another Internet guy."
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>
>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17,
>>> 2008
>>> 1:47 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>> Wow, that didn't format very well - so much for cutting and pasting.
>>>>
>>>> I probably should also say, if someone wants to get REALLY picky, even
>>>> the web site I provided aren't the official regs. They're a copy, and an
>>>> attempt is made to be accurate, but even that site says:
>>>>
>>>> "Those seeking official versions of the Navigation Rules should refer to
>>>> the International Navigational Rules Act of 1977 (Public Law 95-75, 91
>>>> Stat. 308, or 33 U.S.C. 1601-1608), and, the Inland Navigation Rules Act
>>>> of 1980 (Public Law 96-591, 94 Stat. 3415, 33 U.S.C. 2001-2038)."
>>>>
>>>> The interpretation from just another internet guy is this - that's the
>>>> printed version.
>>>>
>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes Michael, it's an official web site. But it's NOT the regs. Take the
>>>>> test, trust me, they don't ask any questions about what's on the web
>>>>> site. They ask specific questions about the regulations, and the source
>>>>> is the printed manual, not their website.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an example: The web site says that "If your power-driven vessel
>>>>> is less than 65.5 feet/20 meters in length, then it must display
>>>>> navigation lights per Figure 1." Figure 1 then shows a picture of a
>>>>> sailboat and a powerboat. The sailboat has a steaming light mounted on
>>>>> the very top of the mast. That's OK, but that's NOT what the regs say.
>>>>>
>>>>> What the regs say specifically are:
>>>>> RULE 23:
>>>>> POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) A power-driven vessel <../pops/def3b_PDV.htm> underway shall
>>>>> exhibit (picture <../pops/nr_23a.htm>):
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. a masthead light <../pops/def21a_masthead.htm> forward;
>>>>> 2. a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the
>>>>> forward
>>>>> one; except that a vessel of less than 50 meters
>>>>> <../pops/nr_23aii.htm> in length shall not be obliged to
>>>>> exhibit such a light but may do so;
>>>>> 3. sidelights <../pops/def21b_side.htm>: and
>>>>> 4. a sternlight <../pops/def21c_stern.htm>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But that's not the end of the story, there are the different size
>>>>> exceptions (which the website you mentioned have included in its
>>>>> recap);
>>>>> but, you must know the definition of some of these terms. For instance
>>>>> "masthead light":
>>>>>
>>>>> =====
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rule 21 - Definitions
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.
>>>>> "Masthead light" means a white light placed over the fore and aft
>>>>> centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of
>>>>> the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from
>>>>> right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the
>>>>> vessel, /except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length
>>>>> the masthead light shall be placed as nearly as practicable to
>>>>> the
>>>>> fore and aft centerline of the vessel./
>>>>>
>>>>> =====
>>>>>
>>>>> (which, by the way, means my memory was wrong, it wasn't 270 degrees,
>>>>> it
>>>>> was 225, my test was a long time ago). It does NOT have to be on the
>>>>> top
>>>>> of the mast as pictured, it can be anywhere on the boat, as long as it
>>>>> fits the above definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> The picture given in the web site your provided just makes it easier to
>>>>> understand the jargon of the office regs. It may be an official web
>>>>> site, but it's NOT the official regs. It's a recap of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The office regs can be found here -
>>>>> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm. They're harder
>>>>> to understand, but much more specific.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your statement about "some guy on the internet" is the same as mine;
>>>>> however, the site you gave isn't the "primary", it's better than a guy
>>>>> on the internet, but it's still not the regs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't I hate it if some bozo took that picture and told me that my
>>>>> steaming light that's not mounted on the top of the mast is not legal
>>>>> because the website shows a picture of the masthead light on top of the
>>>>> mast, and mine is about a few feet down from the top (as are most small
>>>>> boat masthead lights)?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I meant, it's a recap. Better than advice from me, but
>>>>> still
>>>>> not the official regs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What exactly do you mean by your comment: "it's still a recap of the
>>>>>> 'official regs'"? USCGBoating.org is an official CG site
>>>>>> (Registrant:US
>>>>>> Coast Guard, Office of Boating Safety) and it contains the federal and
>>>>>> state
>>>>>> regs. In addition, it contains illustrations that graphically
>>>>>> represent
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> regs that have been reviewed by the CG. It is most certainly better
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> "some guy on the internet."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whenever possible, I appreciate a "primary" information source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
>>>>>> 16,
>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>> 3:31 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gotcha. However, you DO realize that's not the regs. It's a better
>>>>>>> source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on the
>>>>>>> internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't that you stated anything wrong, it is simply the original
>>>>>>>> USCG
>>>>>>>> source of the information in a somewhat easier to read and
>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>> format
>>>>>>>> (including pictures.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
>>>>>>>> 16,
>>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>>> 2:12 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What part of that did I state incorrectly? Looks like the page
>>>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> a recap of the original regs) says different than what I stated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Herb, Bob, etc.,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please read rules on USCG site:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm
>>>>>>>>>> This page is very easy to read and understand.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>>>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Tuesday, April
>>>>>>>>>> 15,
>>>>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>>>>> 10:41 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Bob, but I think you mis-read the regs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A sailboat under power is a powerboat.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A powerboat between 12 meters and 20 meters has to display a
>>>>>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>>>>>> stern light (90 degrees, 45 degrees each direction) and steaming
>>>>>>>>>>> light
>>>>>>>>>>> (270 degrees, 135 each direction)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A sailboat between 7 meters and 20 meters can use a single 360
>>>>>>>>>>> degree
>>>>>>>>>>> light as a combination steaming/stern light.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A sailboat under 7 meters (the Rhodes 22 fits that) can use a
>>>>>>>>>>> flashlight
>>>>>>>>>>> shining on the sail as your steaming light, but how un-cool is
>>>>>>>>>>> THAT?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, if it's under power, it's a powerboat. If it's a
>>>>>>>>>>> powerboat,
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> has to have a steaming light.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob Keller wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the 360 as an anchor light is required but the 360 as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> steaming
>>>>>>>>>>>> light is optional/overkill. The R-22 only needs the port,
>>>>>>>>>>>> starboard
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> stern lights while underway, doesn't need anything on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> mast...
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> CG
>>>>>>>>>>>> link confirmed that. Of course, the rules might be different on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lake
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hartwell since even Y-valves are not allowed there.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob K
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:38:02 -0700> From:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meltzer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herb - Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clarification>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Bob Keller and Dana...> > Michael Meltzer is our resident
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is legal regarding lights. > So 'USCG Captain' Meltzer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct answers to Bob and Dana's> questions?> > This much I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lighting pattern is different for different length> boats. Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledgeable 'Captains' can tell what kind of boat it is. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a question for the 'Captain's' exam.> > As to Anchor light
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible on a 22 foot boat for 360 degrees, I do not> think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be a single light. On the R22 there is a light on the>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'stern'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> added to the light up the mast, together they qualify as 360>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> white light. Is that how the R22 is legal? I suspect that Stan>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might know what qualifies as legal lights.> > Now Bob K. has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> o find out if his 360 degrees of masthead light on a 22 foot>
>>>>>>>>>>>> boat
>>>>>>>>>>>> screws up the Coast Guard's intent in lighting( I already know
>>>>>>>>>>>> the>
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct answer, but does he?). The Coast Guard does publish a
>>>>>>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>>>>>> booklet> on lighting, just do not know where my copy is quickly.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe> these questions are answered in 'Chapman's'. When I
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> copies, I will> seek yea answers. This is comes up every so
>>>>>>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> forum so the> answers are probably in the archives. > > Ed K>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Greenville,
>>>>>>>>>>>> SC, USA> attachment for Slim:> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif > >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>> there, I bought an 87 R22 last year and absolutely love it. I'm>
>>>>>>>>>>>> currently working on getting it ready for the season. The mast
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> wired
>>>>>>>>>>>> for> an anchor light, but whatever was there must have busted
>>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>>>> I got> the boat. There is also a light fixture facing forward
>>>>>>>>>>>> about a
>>>>>>>>>>>> foot from> the top of the mast, but it wasn't working last year
>>>>>>>>>>>> either.>
>>>>>>>>>>>> > I have two questions:> > 1. The an
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ch
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> or light and steaming are separate lights, right? My>
>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that an anchor light has to be visible from all directions,> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> steaming light is the light facing forward that must be on when>
>>>>>>>>>>>> motoring.> > 2. Any recommendations on new lighting? Is there a
>>>>>>>>>>>> combined
>>>>>>>>>>>> LED light that> will serve both purposes?> > Thanks,> Dana> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif
>>>>>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> View
>>>>>>>>>>>> this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Masthead-lights-%28anchor---steaming%29-tp16655218p16656988.html>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.> >
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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