[Rhodes22-list] Michael Meltzer & Herb- Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and clar

Robert Skinner robert at squirrelhaven.com
Thu Apr 17 17:50:58 EDT 2008 

Mike, 

Methinks Herb is just a guy who can't say "Yes."

/Robert
--------------------------------------------------
"Michael D. Weisner" wrote:
> 
> Herb,
> 
> I did read everything.  The distinction that I am trying to make is that the
> materials on the site are not a "recap" or restatement of the regs.  The
> links to the regs, the CFR, etc. are available on the site.  The graphic is
> produced under contract for the USCG and is agency reviewed and approved, as
> is the entire site.  It is designed to eliminate the errors inherent in
> individual interpretation of the regs.  You may go on quoting the regs and
> your interpretations to folks rather than providing a reference to an
> approved source of information.
> 
> We do agree on one thing.  There appears to be no sense to pursuing this
> discussion any further or do you just really enjoy typing that much?
> 
> Mike
> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> Nissequogue River, NY
> 
> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
> 2:39 PM
> > What is your point Michael? I agree with everything you said. You asked
> > me what I meant, I explained. The web site you provided are not the
> > regulations, they are a recap (or an easy to understand agency approved
> > source of information).
> >
> > You really DO need to go back and re-read what I said. I never said
> > anything like the site was "interpretations from another internet guy",
> > I said they were BETTER than a interpretations from another internet guy.
> >
> > Exactly - "
> >
> > It's a better source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on
> > the internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs"."
> >
> > But, I'll repeat myself, it's not the official regulations. The
> > information will certainly work for people if they do exactly what the
> > web site said, but they're not complete, nor are they completely
> > accurate (as I stated, my boat that has a steaming light about 6' down
> > from the masthead doesn't look like the picture, but it's legal).
> >
> > So, which part of your query to me did I not answer, or which part did I
> > incorrectly answer, or do you just really enjoy typing that much?
> >
> > Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> >> Herb,
> >>
> >> First of all, quoting of the rules the way you did does not help anyone
> >> to
> >> understand the actual requirements.  Graphics still convey the
> >> information
> >> best.  If you configure your installation per the USCGBoating.org site
> >> you
> >> will not have any problem.
> >>
> >> As a side point, the site that you list as "the regs" is linked to from
> >> the
> >> USCGBoating.org site, if you looked.  They also have links to the CFR,
> >> which, if you want to be technical about it, "is the primary standard
> >> since
> >> it is law.  The problem with the "rules" of the "laws" is that lay folks
> >> may
> >> not be qualified to properly interpret the verbiage and may make mistakes
> >> as
> >> a result.
> >>
> >> I have always felt that it is most important to reference a usable, easy
> >> to
> >> understand and agency approved source for such information.  The
> >> USCGBoating.org site fulfills all of these requirements.  They are not
> >> interpretations from "another Internet guy."
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >> Nissequogue River, NY
> >>
> >> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, April 17,
> >> 2008
> >> 1:47 PM
> >>
> >>> Wow, that didn't format very well - so much for cutting and pasting.
> >>>
> >>> I probably should also say, if someone wants to get REALLY picky, even
> >>> the web site I provided aren't the official regs. They're a copy, and an
> >>> attempt is made to be accurate, but even that site says:
> >>>
> >>> "Those seeking official versions of the Navigation Rules should refer to
> >>> the International Navigational Rules Act of 1977 (Public Law 95-75, 91
> >>> Stat. 308, or 33 U.S.C. 1601-1608), and, the Inland Navigation Rules Act
> >>> of 1980 (Public Law 96-591, 94 Stat. 3415, 33 U.S.C. 2001-2038)."
> >>>
> >>> The interpretation from just another internet guy is this - that's the
> >>> printed version.
> >>>
> >>> Herb Parsons wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yes Michael, it's an official web site. But it's NOT the regs. Take the
> >>>> test, trust me, they don't ask any questions about what's on the web
> >>>> site. They ask specific questions about the regulations, and the source
> >>>> is the printed manual, not their website.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's an example: The web site says that "If your power-driven vessel
> >>>> is less than 65.5 feet/20 meters in length, then it must display
> >>>> navigation lights per Figure 1."  Figure 1 then shows a picture of a
> >>>> sailboat and a powerboat. The sailboat has a steaming light mounted on
> >>>> the very top of the mast. That's OK, but that's NOT what the regs say.
> >>>>
> >>>> What the regs say specifically are:
> >>>> RULE 23:
> >>>> POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY
> >>>>
> >>>> (a)  A power-driven vessel <../pops/def3b_PDV.htm> underway shall
> >>>> exhibit (picture <../pops/nr_23a.htm>):
> >>>>
> >>>>          1. a masthead light <../pops/def21a_masthead.htm> forward;
> >>>>          2. a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the
> >>>> forward
> >>>>             one; except that a vessel of less than 50 meters
> >>>>             <../pops/nr_23aii.htm> in length shall not be obliged to
> >>>>             exhibit such a light but may do so;
> >>>>          3. sidelights <../pops/def21b_side.htm>: and
> >>>>          4. a sternlight <../pops/def21c_stern.htm>.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But that's not the end of the story, there are the different size
> >>>> exceptions (which the website you mentioned have included in its
> >>>> recap);
> >>>> but, you must know the definition of some of these terms. For instance
> >>>> "masthead light":
> >>>>
> >>>> =====
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>         Rule 21 - Definitions
> >>>>
> >>>>    1.
> >>>>       "Masthead light" means a white light placed over the fore and aft
> >>>>       centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of
> >>>>       the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from
> >>>>       right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the
> >>>>       vessel, /except that on a vessel of less than 12 meters in length
> >>>>       the masthead light shall be placed as nearly as practicable to
> >>>> the
> >>>>       fore and aft centerline of the vessel./
> >>>>
> >>>> =====
> >>>>
> >>>> (which, by the way, means my memory was wrong, it wasn't 270 degrees,
> >>>> it
> >>>> was 225, my test was a long time ago). It does NOT have to be on the
> >>>> top
> >>>> of the mast as pictured, it can be anywhere on the boat, as long as it
> >>>> fits the above definition.
> >>>>
> >>>> The picture given in the web site your provided just makes it easier to
> >>>> understand the jargon of the office regs. It may be an official web
> >>>> site, but it's NOT the official regs. It's a recap of them.
> >>>>
> >>>> The office regs can be found here -
> >>>> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm. They're harder
> >>>> to understand, but much more specific.
> >>>>
> >>>> Your statement about "some guy on the internet" is the same as mine;
> >>>> however, the site you gave isn't the "primary", it's better than a guy
> >>>> on the internet, but it's still not the regs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wouldn't I hate it if some bozo took that picture and told me that my
> >>>> steaming light that's not mounted on the top of the mast is not legal
> >>>> because the website shows a picture of the masthead light on top of the
> >>>> mast, and mine is about a few feet down from the top (as are most small
> >>>> boat masthead lights)?
> >>>>
> >>>> That's what I meant, it's a recap. Better than advice from me, but
> >>>> still
> >>>> not the official regs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Herb,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What exactly do you mean by your comment: "it's still a recap of the
> >>>>> 'official regs'"?  USCGBoating.org is an official CG site
> >>>>> (Registrant:US
> >>>>> Coast Guard, Office of Boating Safety) and it contains the federal and
> >>>>> state
> >>>>> regs.  In addition, it contains illustrations that graphically
> >>>>> represent
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> regs that have been reviewed by the CG.  It is most certainly better
> >>>>> than
> >>>>> "some guy on the internet."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Whenever possible, I appreciate a "primary" information source.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike
> >>>>> s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
> >>>>>        Nissequogue River, NY
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
> >>>>> 16,
> >>>>> 2008
> >>>>> 3:31 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Gotcha. However, you DO realize that's not the regs. It's a better
> >>>>>> source for an interpretation of the regs than "some guy on the
> >>>>>> internet", but it's still a recap of the "official regs".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Herb,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It isn't that you stated anything wrong, it is simply the original
> >>>>>>> USCG
> >>>>>>> source of the information in a somewhat easier to read and
> >>>>>>> understand
> >>>>>>> format
> >>>>>>> (including pictures.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Wednesday, April
> >>>>>>> 16,
> >>>>>>> 2008
> >>>>>>> 2:12 PM
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What part of that did I state incorrectly? Looks like the page
> >>>>>>>> (which
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> a recap of the original regs) says different than what I stated?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Herb, Bob, etc.,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Please read rules on USCG site:
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.uscgboating.org/SAFETY/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm
> >>>>>>>>> This page is very easy to read and understand.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >>>>>>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Tuesday, April
> >>>>>>>>> 15,
> >>>>>>>>> 2008
> >>>>>>>>> 10:41 PM
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry Bob, but I think you mis-read the regs.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A sailboat under power is a powerboat.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A powerboat between 12 meters and 20 meters has to display a
> >>>>>>>>>> separate
> >>>>>>>>>> stern light (90 degrees, 45 degrees each direction) and steaming
> >>>>>>>>>> light
> >>>>>>>>>> (270 degrees, 135 each direction)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A sailboat between 7 meters and 20 meters can use a single 360
> >>>>>>>>>> degree
> >>>>>>>>>> light as a combination steaming/stern light.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A sailboat under 7 meters (the Rhodes 22 fits that) can use a
> >>>>>>>>>> flashlight
> >>>>>>>>>> shining on the sail as your steaming light, but how un-cool is
> >>>>>>>>>> THAT?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> However, if it's under power, it's a powerboat. If it's a
> >>>>>>>>>> powerboat,
> >>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>> has to have a steaming light.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bob Keller wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I think the 360 as an anchor light is required but the 360 as a
> >>>>>>>>>>> steaming
> >>>>>>>>>>> light is optional/overkill.  The R-22 only needs the port,
> >>>>>>>>>>> starboard
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> stern lights while underway, doesn't need anything on the
> >>>>>>>>>>> mast...
> >>>>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>>>> CG
> >>>>>>>>>>> link confirmed that.  Of course, the rules might be different on
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lake
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hartwell since even Y-valves are not allowed there.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob K
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:38:02 -0700> From:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ekroposki at charter.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michael
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Meltzer
> >>>>>>>>>>>> &
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Herb - Masthead lights (anchor & steaming) - Question and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> clarification>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  > > Bob Keller and Dana...> > Michael Meltzer is our resident
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expert
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> what is legal regarding lights. > So 'USCG Captain' Meltzer
> >>>>>>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> correct answers to Bob and Dana's> questions?> > This much I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> know,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lighting pattern is different for different length> boats. Why?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> so
> >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledgeable 'Captains' can tell what kind of boat it is. >
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Herb,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that a question for the 'Captain's' exam.> > As to Anchor light
> >>>>>>>>>>>> being
> >>>>>>>>>>>> visible on a 22 foot boat for 360 degrees, I do not> think that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to be a single light. On the R22 there is a light on the>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 'stern'
> >>>>>>>>>>>> when
> >>>>>>>>>>>> added to the light up the mast, together they qualify as 360>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> degrees
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> white light. Is that how the R22 is legal? I suspect that Stan>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> might know what qualifies as legal lights.> > Now Bob K. has
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> t
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  o find out if his 360 degrees of masthead light on a 22 foot>
> >>>>>>>>>>> boat
> >>>>>>>>>>> screws up the Coast Guard's intent in lighting( I already know
> >>>>>>>>>>> the>
> >>>>>>>>>>> correct answer, but does he?). The Coast Guard does publish a
> >>>>>>>>>>> small
> >>>>>>>>>>> booklet> on lighting, just do not know where my copy is quickly.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Also,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> believe> these questions are answered in 'Chapman's'. When I
> >>>>>>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>> copies, I will> seek yea answers. This is comes up every so
> >>>>>>>>>>> often
> >>>>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>> forum so the> answers are probably in the archives. > > Ed K>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Greenville,
> >>>>>>>>>>> SC, USA> attachment for Slim:> >
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif > >
> >>>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>>> there, I bought an 87 R22 last year and absolutely love it. I'm>
> >>>>>>>>>>> currently working on getting it ready for the season. The mast
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> wired
> >>>>>>>>>>> for> an anchor light, but whatever was there must have busted
> >>>>>>>>>>> off
> >>>>>>>>>>> before
> >>>>>>>>>>> I got> the boat. There is also a light fixture facing forward
> >>>>>>>>>>> about a
> >>>>>>>>>>> foot from> the top of the mast, but it wasn't working last year
> >>>>>>>>>>> either.>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  > I have two questions:> > 1. The an
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ch
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  or light and steaming are separate lights, right? My>
> >>>>>>>>>>> understanding
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> that an anchor light has to be visible from all directions,> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> steaming light is the light facing forward that must be on when>
> >>>>>>>>>>> motoring.> > 2. Any recommendations on new lighting? Is there a
> >>>>>>>>>>> combined
> >>>>>>>>>>> LED light that> will serve both purposes?> > Thanks,> Dana> > >
> >>>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p16656988/approve.gif approve.gif
> >>>>>>>>>>>  > --
> >>>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>> View
> >>>>>>>>>>> this message in context:
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Masthead-lights-%28anchor---steaming%29-tp16655218p16656988.html>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.> >
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-- 
Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven" 
Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."

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