[Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics & Education

Thu Mar 13 21:18:30 EDT 2008

And what about the beautiful Redbuds I remember?
Chris
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "elle" <watermusic38 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics & Education


> Thanks, Chris...and thanks for chiming in...makes the
> days move faster....60's this week!
>
> Bubblers are put away...maples are leafing out, quince
> & almond are doing their thing...almost time to unwrap
> the boat!
>
> elle
>
> --- Chris Geankoplis <napoli68 at charter.net> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Elle!  Well said.
> > Chris G
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "elle" <watermusic38 at yahoo.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 7:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mo Gubmint - Politics &
> > Education
> >
> >
> > > Slim,,
> > >
> > > I'd been trying to stay out of this since there
> > are
> > > some who seem to know more on this subject than
> > those
> > > of us in the biz...and things do get a bit heated
> > here
> > > at times...;^)
> > >
> > > That said, I've been chomping at the bit...so here
> > it
> > > comes......
> > >
> > > One cannot generalize about this topic....training
> > in
> > > any profession is essential, altho' dealing with
> > the
> > > basics may be in the perview of many parents.
> > >
> > > An educated populace promotes the welfare of the
> > > nation and its citizens; but we have babies having
> > > babies...who can say that these folks are capable
> > of
> > > 'educating' their offspring? Or is what they are
> > > teaching what is good for our nation?
> > >
> > > I have had in my classes students who were
> > > homeschooled until high school age, when material
> > > became too complicated for the home school
> > parents.
> > > Those students were ...generally...bright,
> > > inquisitive, respectful. But, so were many of the
> > kids
> > > who had come through the system. Some of the HS
> > kids
> > > were rude & demanding...but so were the 'system'
> > kids.
> > >
> > > I believe there are many parents who are quite
> > capable
> > > of teaching their children ...(isn't what moms did
> > > before we tossed the kiddies into day care &
> > headed
> > > into the work force? Thanks, women's lib...)
> > Shouldn't
> > > there be standards for these students as well as
> > for
> > > the ones in the system?
> > >
> > > But there is  point at which parents cannot get
> > the
> > > material across to their students. Not having
> > depth in
> > > a subject and trying to teach it quickly shows how
> > > little you really know. To instill understanding,
> > to
> > > reinforce it and reiterate it, a good teacher
> > needs to
> > > be able to approach the subject from different
> > > directions; to look at the difficulties the
> > student is
> > > having through his eyes, and devise a strategy to
> > help
> > > him capture the elusive knowledge.
> > >
> > > So what is the worth of a teaching credential??
> > What
> > > is the worth of a medical license...or a
> > beautician's
> > > license. After all, I can cut hair...give me a
> > pair of
> > > scissors & I'll show you....OH...do it WELL...with
> > > STYLE....in a way that suits the recipient...I get
> > > it...that's what the TRAINING is for....
> > >
> > > When you need a surgeon, would you want the one
> > > trained by the local butcher or the one who
> > > matriculated at a highly rated university? I mean,
> > I
> > > can cut up a chicken into parts & a roast into
> > stew
> > > meat...
> > >
> > > Why do we train our troops...or our police...or
> > hazmat
> > > crews...or bus drivers...?
> > >
> > > The point of the teaching credential is not the
> > > rinky-dink edu courses.....(altho; there were some
> > > good ones...) the point of the credential is the
> > > exposure and experience the teacher brings to the
> > > student....the breadth and depth of knowledge of
> > > topics other than just the subject matter...THAT's
> > the
> > > education...
> > >
> > > To be able to react without thinking in an
> > > emergency...we look for standardization in many
> > > occupations...following procedures....that's the
> > > training...and only a highly trained person can
> > pass
> > > this on.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for asking, Slim ;^)
> > >
> > > BTW..when I retired, I donated all 33 yrs of my
> > > teaching materials to the home school folks of a
> > local
> > > church, one of whose dads was  a science teacher
> > at my
> > > HS. They had weekend classes; he taught science on
> > Sat
> > > AM.
> > >
> > > elle
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Steven Alm <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Brad,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, I didn't mean to be vague, just brief.
> > What
> > > > I'm getting at is that
> > > > in a perfect world, all parents are wonderful
> > and
> > > > would make great home
> > > > school teachers for their perfect children.
> > > > But........  Or maybe they
> > > > don't care about whatever--music, sports, all
> > that
> > > > peripheral stuff--and
> > > > only care that their precious little ones don't
> > hear
> > > > anything about that
> > > > godless thing we call evolution or sex education
> > or
> > > > a myriad of unsavory
> > > > topics called the real world.  If their goal is
> > > > protectionism rather than a
> > > > complete, rounded education, they should be
> > allowed
> > > > to sheild their kids
> > > > from the evils of the outside world.
> > > >
> > > > That said, I've met several home schooled
> > > > individuals who were articulate,
> > > > confident and looked you straight in the eye
> > when
> > > > speaking to you with
> > > > endless curiosity about the world and with
> > promising
> > > > futures.  Two in
> > > > particular are my twin niece and nephew.  She
> > was
> > > > operating way above her
> > > > grade level and was getting bored in school
> > because
> > > > it wasn't a challenge
> > > > for her.  The boy was operating below his grade
> > > > level and was frustrated and
> > > > started developing behavioral problems.  So they
> > > > were both pulled out of
> > > > school and taught at home for several years and
> > > > eventually rejoined their
> > > > classmates in public school for their
> > graduation.
> > > > One parent a PhD and the
> > > > other a neurosurgeon, their education was solid
> > to
> > > > say the least.  I'm
> > > > afraid this is the exception however.
> > > >
> > > > As for certification, less than qualified
> > teachers
> > > > will produce less than
> > > > qualified students. The question is whether you
> > can
> > > > be qualified without
> > > > being certified.  Perhaps.  Why should a pilot
> > need
> > > > a licence?  Shouldn't it
> > > > be OK to let a person fly a jet without all that
> > > > bull shit instruction?
> > > > After all, it's as simple as following the
> > > > checklist, right?  Isn't that
> > > > just too much gubment getting in your way?  When
> > I
> > > > was going through my
> > > > certification there were a few times when I
> > thought
> > > > it was just busy work
> > > > but most of it was valuable to me.  I couldn't
> > have
> > > > gotten through the first
> > > > week of teaching without it.
> > > >
> > > > I wish Elle would chime in.  After 33 years in
> > the
> > > > biz I know she has some
> > > > insight.  C'mon girl!
> > > >
> > > > Slim
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Brad Haslett
> > > > <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Slim,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm guessing as to what you really mean.  But,
> > let
> > > > me address the "what is
> > > > > important to me" question first.  The issue at
> > > > hand in California is who
> > > > > "owns" the children.  Most (and that includes
> > me)
> > > > feel that the parents
> > > > > "own" the RESPONSIBILITY for their children
> > and
> > > > that includes the right to
> > > > > oversee their education.  Both of my boys went
> > to
> > > > private schools where
> > > > > the
> > > > > teachers didn't have 'teaching credentials'
> > but
> > > > they knew their subject
> > > > > matter and knew how to teach.  If they didn't,
> > I
> > > > had two choices, pull
> > > > > them
> > > > > out or bitch.  I did neither because 1 - they
> > had
> > > > incredible instructors,
> > > > > and 2 - the school would have told me to "go
> > pound
> > > > sand" if I bitched.
> > > > >  The
> > > > > concept of everyone having access to a public
> > > > education is a wonderful
> > > > > thing
> > > > > and I support it.  The disconnect is that many
> > > > people feel they have no
> > > > > control over the process and they opt out.
> > That
> > > > choice should be
> > > > > protected.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just so you don't misunderstand my point, let
> > me
> > > > state it clearly.  Some
> > > > > folks are naturally gifted teachers and some
> > folks
> > > > know a given area of
> > > > > science or art very well.  When you find an
> > > > individual that can combine
> > > > > their knowledge of a given subject and have a
> > > > natural ability to teach,
> > > > > it's
> > > > > a wonderful thing.  Having a 'credential'
> > means
> > > > you have the patience to
> > > > > listen to X hours of bullshit theory and
> > nothing
> > > > else!
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, I take as much pride in teaching my art
> > and
> > > > science as I do
> > > > > practicing
> > > > > it - $100 says you do too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brad
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Steven Alm
> > > > <stevenalm at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  "I just don't get it!  What is so
> > > > > > special about a teaching credential?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, for one thing, there is only one in a
> > > > million moms out there that
> > > > > > could even begin to teach five little girls
> > to
> > > > sing the National Anthem
> > > > > in
> > > > > > part harmony like we just heard.
> > > > > > It's all about what's important to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Slim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Just bent
> > > > <j.bulfer at jbtek.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  I just don't get it!  What is so
> > > > > > > special about a teaching credential?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brad,
> > > > > > > carefull, you'll have the wrath of the
> > > > teachers union come down on
> > > > > you.
> > > > > > > For every student that is home school, the
> > > > district loses money.
> > > > > > > My guess is it's a lobbiest for the public
> > > > school system who is
> > > > > pushing
> > > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > remember, follow the money and you will
> > find
> > > > the reason.
> > > > > > > Jb
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Home schooling is not my thing but a
> > good
> > > > number of my co-workers
> > > > > home
> > > > > > > > school.  Some do it for religious
> > reasons
> > > > but most do it because
> > > > > > they're
> > > > > > > > fed
> > > > > > > > up with the public school monopoly and
> > don't
> > > > want to spend $10,000+
> > > > > > per
> > > > > > > > child for private schools.  Most of
> > their
> > > > kids have performed well
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > > standardized tests and get into good
> > > > colleges. That won't be a
> > > > > choice
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > California gets their way.  What is it
> > that
> > > > makes people want a
> > > > > > > government
> > > > > > > > that controls every aspect of their
> > lives?
> > > > I just don't get it!
> > > > >  What
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > special about a teaching credential?
> > Most
> > > > education textbooks are
> > > > > > pure
> > > > > > > > BS.
> > > > > > > > Note that the LA Times goes heavy into
> > the
> > > > religion aspect.  That's
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > primary issue with most of the people I
> > know
> > > > who home school.  Brad
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ruling seen as a threat to many
> > > > home-schooling families State
> > > > > > appellate
> > > > > > > > court says those who teach children in
> > > > private must have a
> > > > > credential.
> > > > > > > > By Seema Mehta and Mitchell Landsberg
> > > > > > > > Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > March 6, 2008
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Parents who lack teaching credentials
> > cannot
> > > > educate their children
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > > home,
> > > > > > > > according to a state appellate court
> > ruling
> > > > that is sending waves of
> > > > > > > fear
> > > > > > > > through California's home schooling
> > > > families.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Advocates for the families vowed to
> > appeal
> > > > the decision to the state
> > > > > > > > Supreme
> > > > > > > > Court. Enforcement until then appears
> > > > unlikely, but if the ruling
> > > > > > > stands,
> > > > > > > > home-schooling supporters say California
> > > > will have the most
> > > > > regressive
> > > > > > > law
> > > > > > > > in the nation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "This decision is a direct hit against
> > every
> > > > home schooler in
> > > > > > > California,"
> > > > > > > > said Brad Dacus, president of the
> > Pacific
> > > > Justice Institute, which
> > > > > > > > represents the Sunland Christian School,
> > > > which specializes in
> > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > home
> > > > > > > > schooling. "If the state Supreme Court
> > does
> > > > not reverse this . . .
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > will be nothing to prevent home-school
> > witch
> > > > hunts from being
> > > > > > > implemented
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > every corner of the state of
> > California."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The institute estimates there are as
> > many as
> > > > 166,000 California
> > > > > > students
> > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > are home schooled. State Department of
> > > > Education officials say there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > way to know the true number.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Unlike at least 30 other states, home
> > > > schooling is not specifically
> > > > > > > > addressed in California law. Under the
> > state
> > > > education code,
> > > > > students
> > > > > > > must
> > > > > > > > be enrolled in a public or private
> > school,
> > > > or can be taught at home
> > > > > by
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > credentialed tutor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The California Department of Education
> > > > currently allows home
> > > > > schooling
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > long as parents file paperwork with the
> > > > state establishing
> > > > > themselves
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > small private schools, hire credentialed
> > > > tutors or enroll their
> > > > > > children
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > independent study programs run by
> > charter or
> > > > private schools or
> > > > > public
> > > > > > > > school districts while still teaching at
> > > > home.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > California does little to enforce those
> > > > provisions and insists it is
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > local school districts' responsibility.
> > In
> > > > addition, state education
> > > > > > > > officials say some parents home school
> > their
> > > > children without the
> > > > > > > > knowledge
> > > > > > > > of any entity.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Home schoolers and government officials
> > have
> > > > largely accepted this
> > > > > > murky
> > > > > > > > arrangement.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "This works so well, I don't see any
> > reason
> > > > to change it," said J.
> > > > > > > Michael
> > > > > > > > Smith, president of the Virginia-based
> > Home
> > > > School Legal Defense
> > > > > Assn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The appellate court ruling stems from a
> > case
> > > > involving Lynwood
> > > > > parents
> > > > > > > > Phillip and Mary Long, who were
> > repeatedly
> > > > referred to the Los
> > > > > Angeles
> > > > > > > > County Department of Children and Family
> > > > Services over various
> > > > > > > > allegations,
> > > > > > > > including claims of physical abuse,
> > > > involving some of their eight
> > > > > > > > children.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All of the children are currently or had
> > > > been enrolled in Sunland
> > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > School, where they would occasionally
> > take
> > > > tests, but were educated
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > home by their mother, Phillip Long said.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A lawyer appointed to represent two of
> > the
> > > > Long's young children
> > > > > > > requested
> > > > > > > > that the court require them to
> > physically
> > > > attend a public or private
> > > > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > where adults could monitor their
> > well-being.
> > > > A trial court
> > > > > disagreed,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > the children's lawyer appealed to the
> > 2nd
> > > > District Court of Appeal,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > has jurisdiction over Los Angeles,
> > Ventura,
> > > > Santa Barbara and San
> > > > > Luis
> > > > > > > > Obispo counties.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The appellate panel ruled that Sunland
> > > > officials' occasional
> > > > > > monitoring
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the Longs' home schooling -- with the
> > > > children taking some tests at
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > school -- is insufficient to qualify as
> > > > being enrolled in a private
> > > > > > > > school.
> > > > > > > > Since Mary Long does not have a teaching
> > > > credential, the family is
> > > > > > > > violating
> > > > > > > > state laws, the ruling said.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Parents do not have a constitutional
> > right
> > > > to home school their
> > > > > > > > children,"
> > > > > > > > wrote Justice H. Walter Croskey in a
> > Feb. 28
> > > > opinion signed by the
> > > > > two
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > members of the district court. "Parents
> > who
> > > > fail to [comply with
> > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > enrollment laws] may be subject to a
> > > > criminal complaint against
> > > > > them,
> > > > > > > > found
> > > > > > > > guilty of an infraction, and subject to
> > > > imposition of fines or an
> > > > > > order
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > complete a parent education and
> > counseling
> > > > program."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Phillip Long said he believes the ruling
> > > > stems from hostility
> > > > > against
> > > > > > > > Christians and vowed to appeal to the
> > state
> > > > Supreme Court.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "I have sincerely held religious
> > beliefs,"
> > > > he said. "Public schools
> > > > > > > > conflict
> > > > > > > > with that. I have to go with what my
> > > > conscience requires me."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Public schools teach such topics as
> > > > evolution, which Long said he
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > believe in. He said his wife spends six
> > > > hours each day teaching
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > > children reading, writing, math,
> > science,
> > > > health, physical
> > > > > education,
> > > > > > > > Bible
> > > > > > > > and social studies. Court papers say
> > Mary
> > > > Long's education ended at
> > > > > > 11th
> > > > > > > > grade.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's unclear if the ruling will be
> > enforced,
> > > > given the likely
> > > > > appeals.
> > > > > > > > Typically, these rulings take effect 30
> > days
> > > > after they are issued.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Other organizations that plan to get
> > > > involved include the Pacific
> > > > > > > Justice
> > > > > > > > Institute, Home School Legal Defense
> > Assn.
> > > > and the Home School Assn.
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > California.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Meanwhile, state Department of
> > Education's
> > > > attorneys are reviewing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ruling.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Teachers union officials will also be
> > > > closely monitoring the appeal.
> > > > > > A.J
> > > > > > > .
> > > > > > > > Duffy, president of United Teachers Los
> > > > Angeles, said he agrees with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ruling.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "What's best for a child is to be taught
> > by
> > > > a credentialed teacher,"
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > said.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > While many educators and officials
> > remained
> > > > unfamiliar with the
> > > > > ruling
> > > > > > > > Tuesday, news about it has been sweeping
> > > > websites and blogs devoted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > home
> > > > > > > > schooling. Organizations have been
> > getting
> > > > tense phone calls from
> > > > > > > parents
> > > > > > > > worried that they will be targeted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Families who home school includethose
> > whose
> > > > religious beliefs
> > > > > conflict
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > public schools and those whose children
> > are
> > > > in the entertainment
> > > > > > > industry
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > have other time-consuming activities
> > that
> > > > require them to study at
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > individualized pace.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Glenn and Kathleen, a Sacramento-area
> > couple
> > > > who requested that
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > name not be used for fear of
> > prosecution,
> > > > home school their
> > > > > 9-year-old
> > > > > > > son
> > > > > > > > Hunter because their Christian beliefs
> > would
> > > > be contradicted in a
> > > > > > public
> > > > > > > > school setting, Glenn said. He is
> > troubled
> > > > by the idea that his son
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > exposed to teachings about evolution,
> > > > homosexuality, same-sex
> > > > > marriage
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > sex education .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "I want to have control over what goes
> > in my
> > > > son's head, not what's
> > > > > > put
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > there by people who might be on the far
> > left
> > > > who have their own
> > > > > ideas
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > indoctrinating kids," he said.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the ruling takes effect, Glenn vowed
> > to
> > > > move his family out of
> > > > > > state.
> > > > > > > > "If
> > > > > > > > I can't home school my son in
> > California,
> > > > we're going to have to end
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > leaving California. That's how important
> > it
> > > > is to me."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > seema.mehta at latimes.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > View this message in context:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.nabble.com/Mo-Gubmint---Politics---Education-tp15887644p15888952.html
> > > > > > > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list
> > archive
> > > > at Nabble.com.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > > www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We can't change the angle of the wind....but we
> > can adjust our sails.
> > >
> > >  1992 Rhodes 22   Recyc '06  "WaterMusic"   (Lady
> > in Red)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > ________
> > > Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
>
>
> We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.
>
>  1992 Rhodes 22   Recyc '06  "WaterMusic"   (Lady in Red)
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list