[Rhodes22-list] Complaint to Slim - Political reply to his Political Post -

[Herb Parsons]

What do you mean I'm not rational? Have you seen me support what is 
going on right now? I don't.

I can see SOME value in supporting some of these companies short term. 
Just as I see SOME value in supporting individuals short term.

I don't think we will do that. I think we (as a government/society) will 
do corporate welfare and bail them out. I think the chances of that 
happening now are better than they would have been had we elected 
McCain; but even THAT choice wasn't much better.

I have a son in law that has gotten himself in a mess. He's getting out 
of it, and I'm proud of him for doing so. And my wife and I (and even 
others) were fortunately in a situation where we could help them out, 
but you can bet that we didn't just write him and my daughter a check 
and say "here, go fix it".

There were questions, deep questions, about how they were going to 
change things so it didn't happen again, what changes they need to make 
in their lifestyle, etc.

My daughter knew that was coming when she asked for help, because she 
was raised with the understanding that when you have others help you - 
you are abdicating some level of responsibility to them. You cannot take 
the benefit, but retain the privilege. That's not responsibility - 
that's welfare.

There are too many in this country that want others to give to them, but 
want to retain their "rights" (and the "rights" is deliberate, they're 
not real rights). When I buy my home, it is mine, or should be mine, to 
do with as I please. When I rent a home, it is someone else's and they 
get to tell me before I put my money down what their expectation is. I 
have fewer responsibilities (no long term mortgage, I don't have to pay 
to fix the pipes, etc), but I have few "rights" to the home. If/when I 
ask the government to pay my rent for me, I give up more.

Too many people want the benefit, without the "more".

A shorter answer for you on how I "classify it" - I think you did a very 
good job - "free market socialism", but I'd leave off the "free market" 
part.

Greed in a free market got us here, but it was corporate greed, meaning 
"we" as a group, as a nation. We ENJOYED it when GM was doing well. Our 
union workers ENJOYED it when there was enough money that they could 
demand that the company pay for their health care, pay for double, 
triple, and even more for over time, pay for this, pay for that. Now 
that the bottom is falling out, we want to blame only certain people. 
Sorry, lots of blame to go around on this one.

If we did "free market", we'd let these companies fail. By bailing them 
out, we're just left with socialism. To add insult to injury, Nancy 
Pelosi and her ilk, folks that have spent their lives living off the 
government's growing teat, think they can run the companies BETTER, and 
want to own a part of them.

I think we're headed for some real trouble.

The flip side is, there are enough resiliant citizens in this country 
that we will rebound. We will come to our senses.

If we don't, hey the wind is still free, and I have a boat.


Andrew Collins wrote:
> Herb
>
> How do you classify the free-market socialism that is being imposed on us by
> Paulson, Bernanke and so forth. We are paying for a horrible lack of
> leadership, greed run amok, even Dubya says the Wall St has a hang-over,
> which is not an endorsement! I am not assigning blame here, although I have
> very strong opinions on this, merely pointing out inconvenient and
> unfortunate facts.
>
> These guys are not productive, they were destructive, now they won't lend,
> so they are not productive in that sense.
> We are a society. How do reconcile that with individualism and paying your
> own way - your words. These guys are sucking the teat of the gubmint like no
> one ever has before. These 36 O rings are free market socialists.
>
> John Schulick is paying his own way, he works, pays taxes, hustles and has
> an R22 to keep him sane, just like the rest of us.
>
> You are generally logical but not rational in your diatribes, here I do not
> get it. I know you see what is happening out there, how do you square it?
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>wrote:
>
>   
>> John, you've made an incorrect leap. Non-productive is a description.
>> Sorry you don't like it, but in the context of the discussion, it fit.
>> It's not a "right", it's a factual statement. The discussion was taxes.
>> If you're not paying taxes, you're not productive in that sense. It's
>> not a judgement call, it's just the way it is.
>>
>> I'm sorry if that offends you, I truly am, but that does not change my
>> view.
>>
>> When you get more for the government then you put in, then you're
>> non-productive in that sense. It doesn't mean you have no value, but it
>> DOES mean that someone else is having to pay your way. Life costs money.
>> I don't want to be forced to pay your way. If you don't like my view on
>> that, I understand, but it's my view, and I'm entitled to it.
>>
>> However, your insinuation that I want to do something to folks in that
>> situation, that I have some "final solution" was off the mark. You're
>> simply wrong. You imposed on a view on me that is not mine. My "final
>> solution" is to allow people to make their own choices, and live with
>> the results of those choices.
>>
>> If/when you say nonsense like that, you can expect a similar response
>> from me in the future.
>>
>> I would love to be a full time sailing captain. I have the credentials
>> to do so. However, I do not have the belief that I can support my
>> current bills and do so; so I will wait. That's my decision. It would be
>> improper for me to insist that someone else cover my mortgage, feed my
>> wife, grand-daughter, and daughter and pay my slip fees while I pursue
>> what I want. I will pursue it when I believe I can. That's called
>> responsibility.
>>
>> If you believe that it's OK to take money form one group to finance
>> another, that's a socialist view. You may have other non-socialist views
>> (usually, that would be capitalist views), enough to make you more of a
>> capitalist than a socialist, but neither term is a stigma, they
>> represent views.
>>
>> If you don't have those socialist views, then you understand completely
>> the concept of paying your own way.
>>
>>
>> John Shulick wrote:
>>     
>>> quote author Tootle
>>>
>>> "I saw Herb responding to attacks and snide remarks on his beliefs.  John
>>> S.'s remarks and innuendo set the tone.  He is the troll if there is
>>>       
>> one."
>>     
>>> Ed,
>>>
>>>    I will openly admit that my comments contributed to the current
>>> situation. Now I'll tell you why I made them. Herbs' use of the word
>>> "non-productive" really got under my skin. Tell me what right he has to
>>> determine who's productive and who's not. Unless you have walked a mile
>>>       
>> in
>>     
>>> that persons' shoes you have absolutely no idea of what had transpired in
>>> that persons' life to put them in that situation. Once you've determined
>>> they have no value and don't contribute what becomes of them. You don't
>>>       
>> want
>>     
>>> to pay to educate them. They can't find work that pays them enough to
>>>       
>> feed
>>     
>>> and house themselves so what's left? Let them wander homeless,
>>>       
>>  committing
>>     
>>> crimes to stay alive until society has had enough? What I posted was the
>>> logical conclusion of Herbs' thought and that enraged him. I understand
>>> there was a tradition of someone announcing themselves to this forum, I
>>> formally apologize to the list membership I will do so now. Hello
>>>       
>> everybody
>>     
>>> on the Rhodes 22 forum, my name is John Shulick and I hail from
>>>       
>> Pittsburgh,
>>     
>>> Pa. I'm 50 years old, for 30 years I tried to make a living as a vocalist
>>>       
>> by
>>     
>>> performing as a member of the Pittsburgh opera chorus and soloist or
>>>       
>> section
>>     
>>> leader for any church or temple who would hire me. In addition, because
>>> being a vocalist pays next to nothing I have done menial labor my entire
>>> life installing repairing and maintaining swimming pools in the
>>>       
>> Pittsburgh
>>     
>>> area. My father died when I was 15 I was on my own by age 19. It took me
>>>       
>> 10
>>     
>>> years to get my college degree(BM Duquesne University 86) in a
>>>       
>> combination
>>     
>>> of full and part time attendance. My average annual income is less than
>>>       
>> 15K
>>     
>>> a year and I've worked as many as 4 jobs at one time to earn that. If it
>>> weren't for the fact my wife has a real job I would be living under a
>>>       
>> bridge
>>     
>>> somewhere as one of Herbs' non-productive people. The purchase of my beat
>>>       
>> up
>>     
>>> old 71 Rhodes is one of the high points in my life and it has been a
>>>       
>> great
>>     
>>> joy refinishing the hull and teaching myself to sail it this year. I
>>>       
>> joined
>>     
>>> this forum hoping to benefit from the accumulated knowledge here and I
>>>       
>> have.
>>     
>>> I do not mind political discussion but I DO mind the constant insinuation
>>> that my and others opinions name us as communist socialist and un
>>>       
>> american.
>>     
>>> Sometimes Ed I wonder if you, Herb, and god (Brads' own label not mine)
>>> simply post this stuff on a public forum to provoke fights? I respect you
>>> because of your tremendous knowledge concerning the Rhodes 22 and sailing
>>>       
>> in
>>     
>>> general but you insult me when your response to someone is go to Stan and
>>> throw money at him as a solution to everything Rhodes. Some of us can't
>>>       
>> do
>>     
>>> that. Oh and by the way I did catch you're oblique threat to me some
>>>       
>> months
>>     
>>> ago made as an aside to Elle (shoot the western Pa turkey). Do it again
>>>       
>> and
>>     
>>> I will see if Ben C. would like to own 1/3 of a marina. In his last post
>>> Herb asked me what was up my butt. What's up my butt is the conservative
>>> enema you three have placed there with your constant postings on your
>>>       
>> views.
>>     
>>> Nuff said
>>>
>>> John Shulick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Slim,
>>>>
>>>> Well, at least you get extra credit for making your view public and
>>>> for not taking a back-channel approach, but you are wrong. I don't see
>>>> a man defending his reputation vigorously as engaging in vitriol.
>>>> This group is no different than any other and is certainly capable of
>>>> "gang behavior", and quite frankly, several of you have ganged-up on
>>>> Herb as of late, including you Slim.
>>>>
>>>> "If you seek perfection, look in the mirror.  If you find it there,
>>>> seek it in others".  M. Forbes
>>>>
>>>> Is what you are asking a sneak preview of the Fairness Doctrine? I
>>>> don't like it already!  To my knowledge the only self-admitted
>>>> "troll" on the list has already departed.  Herb is no troll.
>>>>
>>>> Slim, you and your comrades do what you think is best, but I think
>>>> you're being unfair and selfish.
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Steven Alm <stevenalm at gmail.com>
>>>>         
>> wrote:
>>     
>>>>> To JLo and MJM,
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a troll on our list that has been causing problems and
>>>>>           
>> instilling
>>     
>>>>> hatred and posting foul diatribes for months now.  He has caused many
>>>>>           
>> to
>>     
>>>>> filter him out and/or delete his posts in disgust.  I, myself have
>>>>> received
>>>>> numerous back-channel messages complaining about him and his rude and
>>>>> inappropriate posts.  This should come to a halt.  As a member of this
>>>>> fine
>>>>> community of Rhodes owners for some 8 or 9 years, I've seen only one
>>>>> other
>>>>> member who has shown such a disrespect for others here on the Rhodes
>>>>> list.
>>>>> That individual was ultimately relieved of his status here and
>>>>>           
>> thankfully
>>     
>>>>> is
>>>>> no longer a member.  I recommend that this troll be sanctioned and no
>>>>> longer
>>>>> be allowed to participate in our otherwise polite and courteous
>>>>>           
>> exchange
>>     
>>>>> of
>>>>> sailing and/or other topics.  He has disrupted our list for too long
>>>>>           
>> and
>>     
>>>>> has
>>>>> caused too many arguments for the rest of us to be comfortable with
>>>>> posting
>>>>> our usual thoughts on any given topic without being lambasted with his
>>>>> vitriol.  He continues to insult anyone and everyone who disagrees with
>>>>> his
>>>>> positions and in doing so has created an environment of hostility that
>>>>> has
>>>>> made the Rhodes list a den of venom.  I'm referring to Herb Parsons.  I
>>>>> ask
>>>>> that you consider removing him from our group.  He contributes little
>>>>> other
>>>>> than arguments and stifles many from contributing to this wonderful
>>>>> forum.
>>>>> I want him out!
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Alm  aka  "Slim"
>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> __________________________________________________
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>>
>>     
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