[Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading ...

Tue Oct 21 20:05:04 EDT 2008

Jb;

Thanks.

Actually I prefer "moose shit" to "marxist", but we've beaten this to death
so I'll let it go.

I have been sailing .  Been out three times this month on Sandy Hook Bay. 
Sailed with a (former?) list member Rob Baldi who taught me more in four
hours than I could have imagined.  We played with the traveler (I had never
moved it from dead center) and I learned how adjusting it can help on a long
track.
I even learned alittle about those strings on the edges of the sails, which
I hadn't paid a whole lot of attention to (forget the name).  8-12 mph winds
out of the NNE most days.  Enough clouds to keep from baking.  Got to get
her out of the water by 11-1. Too bad. Looking to go out with Jay Friedland
and get some real lessons before the end of the month, but it might not
happen. Still dreaming of next 4th of July in NY Harbor for the fireworks,
(if I get up the courage to challenge that crush of boats).

Best,

Ben C.

Just bent wrote:
> 
> Dear Ben,
> 
> You may think you know my opinion, but you don't.
> All I said was that threats are not tolerated on this list.
> I read your post as a threat to another member and asked if that is what
> you
> meant.
> I think name calling is very childish and speaks of the person. No I don't
> think it's entertaining
> I've been called moose shit by a school teacher from this list. It means
> nothing.
> There are many ways to make a point. Some just say it, others imply it. It
> makes the same point.
> You guys can "skirmish" all you want, it's not going to change anything,
> or
> anyone so .........what's the point?
> 
> Been sailing lately.....I have.
> Jb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading ...
> 
> 
>>
>> Dear Jb;
>>
>> I am curious.  Do you see no problem with Ed's post at the beginning of
> this
>> thread? Is it OK for members to call each other such vile names as
>> marxist
>> or refer to them being co-conspirators in a fraud?  I know your opinion
>> about what I said.  What is your opinion of what Ed said, not as it
> relates
>> to me but as it relates generally to behavior of forum members? Do you
> find
>> such invective entertaining?  I'm trying to be serious here for a moment.
> I
>> am interested in your opinion because I haven't skirmished with you
>> before
>> and I really want a fresh thought on this?  Are you willing to put aside
> the
>> "reparte" for a moment and address this subject? You talk, I'll listen.
>>
>> Ben C.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just bent wrote:
>> >
>> > Herb
>> > My pic is at the end of the post.     jb.jpg
>> > Jb
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:30 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading ...
>> >
>> >
>> >> I'm looking at my screen, but can't say for sure. I see black, and see
>> >> white in your post.
>> >>
>> >> Both are extremes.
>> >>
>> >> You realize, it's all tongue in cheek don't you?
>> >>
>> >> We both know the truth. Ben was putting out a stupid threat, and was
>> >> probably embarrassed that anyone called him on it.... OK, I'll be
>> >> honest, probably embarrassed that anyone besides ME called him on it.
>> >>
>> >> I never liked it when the kids at school pumped out their chests like
>> >> they were ready to fight. I always thought the real fun was watching
>> >> them back down.
>> >>
>> >> But, I'm an extremist, and probably do look like one.
>> >>
>> >> But then, there are worst things in life.
>> >>
>> >> Just bent wrote:
>> >> > Herb.
>> >> > do I look like an extreamist?
>> >> > Jb
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > hparsons wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Ahhh, good to know I'm not the only extremist that saw it that way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Maybe you should look a little closer at how you worded things
> Ben....
>> >> >> I'm not the only one ....
>> >> >>
>> >> >> JbTek wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Ben C.
>> >> >>> I meant were you threatening to sue. That's what it read like to
> me.
>> >> >>> I think name calling is allowed on this list, or at least
>> tolerated
>> > but
>> >> >>> threats are not.
>> >> >>> Jb
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>> >> >>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:16 PM
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading
> ...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Do you mean, was Ed threatening to charge me as a co-conspirator?
>> >> It
>> >> >>>> sure
>> >> >>>> sounded like that to me. Or did you mean was Ed threatening to
> label
>> > me
>> >> >>>> as
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> a
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> marxist? Sure sounded that way to me. Was I threatening to sue
>> Ed?
>> > No,
>> >> >>>> but
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> I
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> was gently suggesting that if I did not have such a wonderfully
>> >> >>>> developed
>> >> >>>> sense of humor a person in my position (libeled by him) might
>> have
>> > such
>> >> >>>> options and he ought not call people defamatory names.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Ben C.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Just bent wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>> I got a question or you....was that a threat?
>> >> >>>>> Jb
>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> >>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>> >> >>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:39 AM
>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>> leading
>> > ...
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Ed;
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Will you answer some questions for me? What is a marxist as you
>> >> see
>> >> >>>>>> it?
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> What
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> makes me a marxist in your view?  Does the 1st Amendment to our
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Constitution
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> immunize folks who libel other folks? Does calling someone a
>> > marxist
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>> who
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>> is
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> not in fact a marxist constitute defamation of character? Do
>> you
>> > have
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>> any
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>> life savings?  Inquiring minds want to know?
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Have a nice day.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Ben C.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> Ed,
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> Obama intentionally and cynically has misled the public about
> his
>> >> >>>>>>> relationship with Ayers.  This issue isn't going away and it
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> shouldn't
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>> go away.  Speculation is strong and the evidence is growing
> that
>> > the
>> >> >>>>>>> Obama and Ayers relationship goes all the way back to Obama's
>> >> days
>> > in
>> >> >>>>>>> NYC at Columbia (Ayers was there at the same time and they
>> were
>> > both
>> >> >>>>>>> friends of Dr. Saed) and that Ayers actually ghost authored
>> > Obama's
>> >> >>>>>>> first book (the word count and sentence structure mirrors
> Ayer's
>> >> >>>>>>> writing and was written at a 12th grade level, Obama's second
>> >> book
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> was
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>> written at a 9th grade level).  But let's forget speculation
> for
>> >> a
>> >> >>>>>>> moment and stick with what is known.  I'm posting a link
> instead
>> > of
>> >> >>>>>>> the article so you can see the photo.
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >
> http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/20/obama-praised-searing-timely-book-ayers/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>> We know from tax returns from the Annenberg Challenge that
> Obama,
>> >> >>>>>>> Ayers, and Klonsky all had offices on the same floor of the
> same
>> >> >>>>>>> building. Michelle and Ayers' wife both worked at the same law
>> > firm.
>> >> >>>>>>> Obama and Ayers appeared at joint speaking engagements (which
> by
>> > the
>> >> >>>>>>> way, Illinois ethics law prohibits receiving fees for speaking
>> >> but
>> >> >>>>>>> Obama's tax returns show "speaker fees" during the period he
> was
>> > in
>> >> >>>>>>> the Illinois Senate, another MSM oversight).
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> "Just a guy in my neighborhood with a degree in English"
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> That was willful intent to decieve and the MSM has for the
>> most
>> > part
>> >> >>>>>>> let him get away with it.
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> The man is a liar, if he were on trial he would certainly be
>> > guilty
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>> perjury - and he may well be, soon.
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> Brad
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Tootle
>> <ekroposki at charter.net>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Ben said, "... Since I socialize mostly with folks in my own
>> >> >>>>>>>> socioeconomic
>> >> >>>>>>>> class, while most support Obama, ..."  The term leadership
>> > comprises
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> many
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> atributes.  And part of what are call traditional values is
>> > simple
>> >> >>>>>>>> honesty.
>> >> >>>>>>>> Sometimes honesty requires analysis of what is going on and
>> > saying
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> hey,
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> "
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> America, we have a problem..."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Ben discounted the Bill Ayers thing.  Even if he is a Marxist
> as
>> > is
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Bill
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Ayers, he as an American has an obligation to speak the
>> truth.
>> > In
>> >> >>>>>>>> America a
>> >> >>>>>>>> Marxist is obligated to tell the truth and not lie about it.
> So
>> > it
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> goes
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> with his candidate Obama.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> So what are the elements of Conspiracy?  If you know or
>> should
>> > have
>> >> >>>>>>>> reasonable known something?  Are you obligated to say
> something?
>> > If
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> you
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> do
>> >> >>>>>>>> not say anything are you a coconspirator?
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> In Ben's case I have to ask, if a fraud is being commited is
> he
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> obligated
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> to
>> >> >>>>>>>> speak out?
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> The above is why I routinely for years have quoted:
>> >> >>>>>>>> In Germany they first came for the Communists
>> >> >>>>>>>>    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
>> >> >>>>>>>>  Then they came for the Jews,
>> >> >>>>>>>>    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>> >> >>>>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists
>> >> >>>>>>>>     and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
>> >> >>>>>>>> Then they came for the Catholics
>> >> >>>>>>>>     and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
>> >> >>>>>>>>  Then they came for me
>> >> >>>>>>>>    and by that time no one was left to speak up.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>  --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German
>> > Confessing
>> >> >>>>>>>> Church
>> >> >>>>>>>> who spent seven years in a concentration camp.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Ben said, "... I, on the other hand, wish there were no
>> > connection
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> at
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>> all
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> because then we could argue about policy instead of who knew
>> >> who,
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> where
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> and
>> >> >>>>>>>> when, and what possible difference it makes."
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Is this an admission of an issue?  Saying that because most
>> > others
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> deny
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> the
>> >> >>>>>>>> connection is using Richard Nixon's arguement that everybody
>> >> else
>> > in
>> >> >>>>>>>> politics did it, therefore it was o.k.  Saying his friends
> deny
>> > the
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> issue
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> does not make it go away.  It is Richard Nixon's arguement
>> all
>> > over
>> >> >>>>>>>> again.
>> >> >>>>>>>> Wasn't Nixon a lawyer?
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Does law school teach ask the hard questions in court, but do
>> >> not
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> ask
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> them
>> >> >>>>>>>> of yourself?  Are lawyers above the law?  Inquiring minds
>> want
>> >> to
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> know?
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Ed K
>> >> >>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>> >> >>>>>>>> attachment for Andrew:
>> >> >>>>>>>>
> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20084939/Andrew%2527s%2Bversion.jpg
>> >> >>>>>>>> Andrew%27s+version.jpg
>> >> >>>>>>>> --
>> >> >>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >
> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20084939.html
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> list
>> > go
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> list
>> > go
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> -- 
>> >> >>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >
> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20093092.html
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>> list
>> >> go
>> > to
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> go
>> > to
>> >> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>> -- 
>> >> >>>> View this message in context:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >
> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20099555.html
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> go
>> > to
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> go
>> >> to
>> >> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> to
>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > http://www.nabble.com/file/p20100644/Jb.jpg
>> >> >
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -- 
>> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20101056.html
>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
> 
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
> 
> 

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