[Rhodes22-list] Re spect
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Thu Oct 23 11:49:42 EDT 2008
Your right, you provided the label, and I kept it. It's sarcasm.
You initially labeled my position extreme:
"I understand that neither you nor I would not display such a sticker,
but I think that your *ultimate position* is extreme"
(my emphasis).
Now you seem to be parsing things a bit, or clarification, whichever you
prefer, and state that is not my belief that's extreme, but rather my
action.
"And so it goes. Standing up for ones beliefs does not make one extreme.
The proposed action was viewed as extreme, not the belief nor the person."
I can't quite discern the difference between "position" and "belief" in
this context, but I'll give it to you anyway:
An extremist is one who is extreme, holds extreme views, or participates
in extreme actions. As I stated, I added the "ist". And, I do enjoy the
label, when I use it, I use it sarcastically, because I think your label
is foolishness. However, whether it's accurate, inaccurate, enjoyed, or
despised, you did indeed label my action as "extreme". And it's I that
you labeled extreme, so the "ist" is appropriate.
A little more on the belief, position, action, whatever, that you found
extreme:
I think the "freedom of speech" issue is one of the most misunderstood,
and misinterpreted, parts of our constitution.
I'm sorry my friend, you have little guarantee to the right of freedom
of speech. You are not guaranteed that you can freely speak your
opinions, or that doing so will not have repercussions. Go back and
re-read the first amendment. What you DO have is a constitutional
guarantee that the GOVERNMENT will not abridge your freedom of speech.
I'm not the government. I can abridge your freedom of speech, and am
allowed to do so through a wide variety of methods.
If I tell a merchant that I will never purchase something from him
because I think his sales of material advocating the murder of a
Presidential candidate is wrong, I am doing nothing wrong, nor am I
taking away any of his freedoms, I'm merely exercising one of my own.
As a matter fact, I would have the same option to personally boycott him
for his political views (though I personally would not).
The latter I would view as extreme. The former, not so much. And if it
is, then it's only because we've become such a nation of panty-waists
that we fear the repercussions of doing the right thing.
I have no problem whatsoever telling a merchant that's selling a picture
of Obama with a scope target on him, comparing him to Martin Luther
King, that he's wrong, and I won't do business with him (which is what I
did in this case, though I never heard back).
And, as I answered in your question, I'd do the same with the boss of my
company.
Michael D. Weisner wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Actually, you adopted the label "extreme", I merely commented on your position. You actually appeared to enjoy displaying your self adopted descriptor (read the last referenced post.) The exchange went as follows:
>
> from HParsons:
> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055687.html
> I think someone needs to print bumper stickers that say:
> "Palin for VP"from MWeisner:
> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055696.html
> Herb,
> Just for you, I found these sites:
> {link}, {link}
> Both featuring Palin bumper stickers. The Zazzle site has my favorites.
> Herb's bumper sticker:
> "I'm voting for Sarah
> and that guy she's running with"
> {link}
> "I'm Pullin' For Pallin"
> {link}
> and let's not forget the real reason that she's on the ticket:
> "Sarah Palin
> Hockey Mom I'd Like to Puck"
>
> from HParsons:
> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055716.html
> Frazzle had some interesting ones, and some I even like, but sorry, I
> couldn't purchase from a company that was selling this one: {link} I think sometimes people let "freedom of speech" go too far. That was a an example.
>
> from MWeisner:
> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055721.html
> As far as the "NOBAMA ..." goes, I tend to think that it is in bad taste, but I hesitate to place restrictions on "freedom of speech" - I think that is called censure. Who are the people that "let 'freedom of speech' go too far?"
>
> Why couldn't you purchase from a company that permits people to display bad taste? I would think that there are very few companies that you can purchase from in the world today, if this is your yardstick for doing business. Can you purchase from Wal-Mart? They will place most anything that sells on their shelves.
>
> I understand that neither you nor I would not display such a sticker, but I think that your ultimate position is extreme.
>
> from HParsons:
> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055728.html
> "Couldn't" might have been the wrong word, wouldn't is likely more appropriate. I think people totally misunderstand the "Freedom of Speech" issue. Yes, by all means this company has the right to sell them, and I would in no means want to legally restrict that right.
>
> However, I not only have the right, but I feel I have the moral duty to determine for myself, who I'm going to support.
>
> When a company feels it's proper (and I believe it goes beyond "bad taste") to sell bumper stickers advocating the killing of another human being because of their distaste for that person, that's enough for me that I would not purchase from them.
>
> Yes, Wal-Mart has things that are in bad taste, but not that bad. I don't mind buy from a Wal-Mart that sells cigarettes, nor do I mind buying from one that sells ashtrays that say "put your butt here" and shaped like a pig's butt. However, if they sold KKK banners, I'd be shopping elsewhere.
>
> Call it extreme if you like, I don't mind being extreme.
> And so it goes. Standing up for ones beliefs does not make one extreme. The proposed action was viewed as extreme, not the belief nor the person.
>
> Herb is a self titled extremist, although he has no argument against his claim from me.
>
> Mike
> s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
> Nissequogue River, NY
>
>
> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 4:15 AM
> Actually, it was Michael Weisner that labeled me "extreme" (I added the
> "ist", but it's just another way to say the same thing) because, get
> this - I said I wouldn't purchase a bumper sticker from a company the
> also sells bumper stickers advocating the killing of a political
> candidate. That was an "extreme" position according to Michael. So, I
> adopted the label. It probably does fit me, but wow.... Standing up for
> what you believe is no "extreme". Sad state of affairs.
>
> As to the asshole thing - "Some frequency"???? I think maybe you should
> go back and look again. As a matter of fact, I challenge you on it. I
> think you're either mistaken, or a liar, plain and simple (and I really
> do believe it's the former, not the latter).
>
> I recently called Ben one, because of his (I'll grant him and you,
> perceived) threat about legal action.
>
> I called Slim one when he stated that I was "non-chalant" about
> soldier's deaths. If he had said that one to my face, I'd have done a
> lot more than call him an asshole.
>
> And, there was the time when Robert didn't like me responding to one of
> his messages, and referred to me as "Mr. Herb
> Always-has-to-have-the-last-word Parsons" and I told him to quit acting
> like one (you know, the whole name-calling thing that some of you think
> is so bad, depending, of course, on who it's aimed at).
>
> That's 2, 3 if you count the "acting like". I post here a LOT and I
> don't think 2 or 3 posts would really qualify as "frequent". But then, I
> wouldn't have thought my position mentioned earlier as "extreme".
>
> Looking at the past email in my system, Brad tends to call folks that as
> well, one notable case was aimed at Pete. I seem to have gotten credit
> for that one a couple of times, but twarn't me (though I didn't disagree).
>
> Seems you're paying quite a bit of attention to what you don't like me
> doing, and ignoring the rest. Would you like the examples of the implied
> racists, stated extremist, talk about "debaters vs just believers" and
> all the other nonsense on here?
>
> Somehow, some folks on here seem to think it's cute, intelligent, or
> somehow honorable to imply something about someone, and then rude for
> another person to say something outright.
>
> I disagree. Strongly.
>
> I say that when Rob writes "I've been saying for some time that the
> Democrats are the party for thinkers and debaters while the Republicans
> just believe" he's saying something about ME. Something that is a lie.
> I'm a Republican, and he says I don't have the capacity (or choose not
> to exercise it) to think and debate, but I simply blindly believe.
>
> Not only does he say it, he proudly admits he's been "saying for some time".
>
> And that's somehow polite and OK, but asshole is not?
>
> Wow. I'll simply have to disagree on this one.
>
>
>
>
> David Bradley wrote:
>
>> Herb, I assume you are reading the list and it's an open forum. My
>> reply was voiced to Ben in answer to his question, but it was for you.
>> I stand by my statements. You label yourself as extreme, and I
>> agree. I don't recall anyone directly calling you a racist or a
>> religous kook or a bigot. I do recall you telling people they are an
>> asshole with some frequency. I think you degrade the experience for
>> all.
>>
>> My opinion. Call me what you will.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Gee Davey, I wish I wuz smart like you. I thinks ah did a little give
>>> and take, but I definitely didn't run Ben down to someone else and
>>> pretend he couldn't see what I was saying.
>>>
>>> I'll give Ben this much, he has an issue with someone, he addresses it
>>> to them directly, not as an aside to someone else.
>>>
>>>
>>> David Bradley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ben, your posts are appreciated by what I suspect is a silent
>>>> majority, even if a slim one. Herb is to the right of 99% of the
>>>> population, loves to pick a fight and is first to escalate the tone
>>>> and begin the name calling. He would have been thrown out of any bar
>>>> I've ever hung out in long ago. Most of us just don't bother to
>>>> reason with him because there is no reasoning, no give and take.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Benjamin Cittadino
>>>> <bigben65 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Paul;
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate the sentiment. Thanks for the thought. Frankly, I'm
>>>>> reassessing my role here and whether it makes sense to participate further,
>>>>> at least as to the political stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>
>>>>> pdgrand wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not Jb but I'd like to weigh in on the subject. As I said in the
>>>>>> past, I used to especially enjoy the political debating between Brad &
>>>>>> Bill in past election cycles. They didn't get personal and they kept it
>>>>>> respectful. Bill seems to be sitting this one out, leaving you, Pete &
>>>>>> some others to lead the arguements for the left against Brad, Herb & Ed on
>>>>>> the right. Personally, I don't recall reading anything from you that I
>>>>>> would term offensive. Others obviously disagree. Discussing politics
>>>>>> often evokes different levels of emotion in different people. Let's keep
>>>>>> the lively debate going, but everyone needs to work on not taking things
>>>>>> personally or getting personal with a reply to what may only be a
>>>>>> perceived insult (which you have done for the most part). In other words,
>>>>>> everyone just needs to lighten up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Jb;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am curious. Do you see no problem with Ed's post at the beginning of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> thread? Is it OK for members to call each other such vile names as
>>>>>>> marxist
>>>>>>> or refer to them being co-conspirators in a fraud? I know your opinion
>>>>>>> about what I said. What is your opinion of what Ed said, not as it
>>>>>>> relates
>>>>>>> to me but as it relates generally to behavior of forum members? Do you
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> such invective entertaining? I'm trying to be serious here for a moment.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am interested in your opinion because I haven't skirmished with you
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>> and I really want a fresh thought on this? Are you willing to put aside
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> "reparte" for a moment and address this subject? You talk, I'll listen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>> My pic is at the end of the post. jb.jpg
>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm looking at my screen, but can't say for sure. I see black, and see
>>>>>>>>> white in your post.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both are extremes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You realize, it's all tongue in cheek don't you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We both know the truth. Ben was putting out a stupid threat, and was
>>>>>>>>> probably embarrassed that anyone called him on it.... OK, I'll be
>>>>>>>>> honest, probably embarrassed that anyone besides ME called him on it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I never liked it when the kids at school pumped out their chests like
>>>>>>>>> they were ready to fight. I always thought the real fun was watching
>>>>>>>>> them back down.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, I'm an extremist, and probably do look like one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But then, there are worst things in life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Herb.
>>>>>>>>>> do I look like an extreamist?
>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> hparsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ahhh, good to know I'm not the only extremist that saw it that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you should look a little closer at how you worded things
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ben....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not the only one ....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> JbTek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant were you threatening to sue. That's what it read like to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think name calling is allowed on this list, or at least tolerated
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> threats are not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean, was Ed threatening to charge me as a co-conspirator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounded like that to me. Or did you mean was Ed threatening to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> label
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> marxist? Sure sounded that way to me. Was I threatening to sue Ed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was gently suggesting that if I did not have such a wonderfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of humor a person in my position (libeled by him) might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> options and he ought not call people defamatory names.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got a question or you....was that a threat?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:39 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will you answer some questions for me? What is a marxist as you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes me a marxist in your view? Does the 1st Amendment to our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immunize folks who libel other folks? Does calling someone a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> marxist
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not in fact a marxist constitute defamation of character? Do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life savings? Inquiring minds want to know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a nice day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama intentionally and cynically has misled the public about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship with Ayers. This issue isn't going away and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go away. Speculation is strong and the evidence is growing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama and Ayers relationship goes all the way back to Obama's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> days
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NYC at Columbia (Ayers was there at the same time and they were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends of Dr. Saed) and that Ayers actually ghost authored
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obama's
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first book (the word count and sentence structure mirrors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ayer's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writing and was written at a 12th grade level, Obama's second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written at a 9th grade level). But let's forget speculation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment and stick with what is known. I'm posting a link
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the article so you can see the photo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/20/obama-praised-searing-timely-book-ayers/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We know from tax returns from the Annenberg Challenge that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obama,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayers, and Klonsky all had offices on the same floor of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building. Michelle and Ayers' wife both worked at the same law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> firm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama and Ayers appeared at joint speaking engagements (which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way, Illinois ethics law prohibits receiving fees for speaking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's tax returns show "speaker fees" during the period he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Illinois Senate, another MSM oversight).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Just a guy in my neighborhood with a degree in English"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That was willful intent to decieve and the MSM has for the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let him get away with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man is a liar, if he were on trial he would certainly be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perjury - and he may well be, soon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben said, "... Since I socialize mostly with folks in my own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socioeconomic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class, while most support Obama, ..." The term leadership
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> comprises
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atributes. And part of what are call traditional values is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> simple
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honesty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes honesty requires analysis of what is going on and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America, we have a problem..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben discounted the Bill Ayers thing. Even if he is a Marxist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayers, he as an American has an obligation to speak the truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist is obligated to tell the truth and not lie about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with his candidate Obama.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what are the elements of Conspiracy? If you know or should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable known something? Are you obligated to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> something?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not say anything are you a coconspirator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Ben's case I have to ask, if a fraud is being commited is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obligated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak out?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is why I routinely for years have quoted:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Germany they first came for the Communists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the Jews,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and by that time no one was left to speak up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Confessing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who spent seven years in a concentration camp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben said, "... I, on the other hand, wish there were no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> connection
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because then we could argue about policy instead of who knew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> who,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when, and what possible difference it makes."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this an admission of an issue? Saying that because most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deny
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connection is using Richard Nixon's arguement that everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> politics did it, therefore it was o.k. Saying his friends
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> deny
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not make it go away. It is Richard Nixon's arguement all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't Nixon a lawyer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does law school teach ask the hard questions in court, but do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of yourself? Are lawyers above the law? Inquiring minds want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attachment for Andrew:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20084939/Andrew%2527s%2Bversion.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew%27s+version.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20084939.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20093092.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20099555.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20100644/Jb.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20101056.html
>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20122113.html
>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
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