[Rhodes22-list] Comment to Philidelphia Lawyer about medical costs

[Herb Parsons]

But but but Brad, Lawyer jokes are FUN. Most of the good ones that I 
know came from lawyers! The guys my wife used to work for had a 
collection of them on the table in their lobby.

On tort reform - Here's my "Herb amendments" to your suggestions.

1) Reverse damages are always allowed, not just in < 100k
  1a) The above are payable by the attorney if he took the case on 
consignment, to the same percentage at which he took the case. That 
would end the "let's roll the dice and see what happens" contingency cases
  1b) All of the above applies to class action suits as well.

2) Do away with the "deep pockets" rules. If your company has 
10,000,000,000 in assets, and the party that was 90% at fault is 
"judgement proof", because he owes more than he's worth, you should 
STILL only be expected to pay only 10% of the judgment.



Brad Haslett wrote:
> Herb,
>
> I look forward to the debate with Ben on this issue after the
> election.  Actually, the same 'cure' for health-care will work for
> unnecessary lawsuits.  Getting sick and getting hurt "happens".  The
> solution to health care is to tame the extreme ends of the bell curve.
>  Here's my idea for runaway legal suits.  First, if what you have to
> sue over isn't worth at least $100,000, then you have to pay for the
> other parties defense if you lose plus their time and aggravation.
> That would eliminate crap like what we just went through with our dump
> truck loss last year.  Second, if you're worth more than 2 million,
> the folks left behind will be just fine - set a limit on what a
> person's injuries or "worth" is, no matter how crass or cold that may
> sound.
>
> Odd as it may seem, I'll sit out the lawyer jokes and the "Ben
> bashing". He's like a lot of my lawyer friends - good guys, " just
> can't see the forest for the trees".
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>   
>> Ben,
>>
>> Didn't you just tell us a few posts back that "Punitive damages are a
>> non-issue. They are almost never awarded, and when they are a Judge
>> usually minimizes them (by remitting the jury's verdict)."
>>
>> If that's the case, then limiting something that is almost never
>> awarded, and usually minimized when they are, would hardly seem to be a
>> problem.
>>
>> Can we start telling lawyer jokes now?
>>
>>
>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>     
>>> Tootle;
>>>
>>> I'll debate tort reform with you after the election if you really want to,
>>> but for now be satisfied with the following article which tells the "other
>>> side" of the story.  Anyone who reads your "position paper" may want a quick
>>> answer. I don't agree with everything in this article but it's close enough
>>> to give people the idea.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Who Wants To Become a Medical Malpractice Millionaire?
>>> The Phony Tort Reform Crisis
>>>
>>> by Ted Rall
>>>
>>> On a recent episode of "Fear Factor," two flat-tummied babes in hot pants
>>> and jogging bras agreed to be locked into a glass coffin with 500 panicky
>>> tarantulas--"we're adding crickets to keep the tarantulas active," the
>>> show's host explained helpfully--as their boyfriends sawed a metal bar to
>>> free them. At stake in this ordeal was the chance to proceed to the next of
>>> eight elimination rounds, the survivors of which were promised one million
>>> dollars. It's amazing what people will do for money.
>>>
>>> Still, there are limits. How much money would you require in order to
>>> consent to having your leg chopped off? A finger? Would you agree to be
>>> blinded for $1 million? $10 million? Would you let yourself be killed? After
>>> all, you're going to die anyway. Wouldn't passing away painlessly, under
>>> anesthesia, be worth the price if you believed that your family would become
>>> wealthy as a result?
>>>
>>> If you're rational, you think these are crazy questions. Good health, a
>>> sound body, life itself are all priceless. No amount of money can compensate
>>> you for unnecessarily losing a function or body part. And that's what the
>>> Bush Administration and its medical industry allies think too. Under their
>>> proposed "tort reform" legislation, you'll receive virtually nothing if
>>> you're butchered by a careless doctor.
>>>
>>> A jury can award two classes of damages to a victim of medical malpractice:
>>> economic and punitive. Economic damages compensate a patient for future
>>> wages lost as a result of a doctor's mistake; punitive awards account for
>>> other victims who may not have sued, They also send a warning to other
>>> doctors not to behave negligently. Bush wants to slap a limit on economic
>>> damages, but with the average household earning about $40,000 a year, lost
>>> wages tend to be relatively low. The current proposal focuses on the
>>> punitive component because it comprises the biggest part of large damage
>>> awards. Bush wants to limit punitive damages to $250,000.
>>>
>>> "This liability system, I'm telling you, is out of control," Bush says.
>>> "Because the system is so unpredictable, there is a constant risk of being
>>> hit by a massive jury award. It's costly for the doctors, it's costly for
>>> small businesses, it's costly for hospitals, it is really costly for
>>> patients."
>>>
>>> First it's Iraq. Then Social Security. Now more lies to create a phony torts
>>> crisis.
>>>
>>> The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office finds that the costs associated
>>> with malpractice--buying insurance and paying out damage awards--amounts to
>>> less than two percent of America's skyrocketing healthcare expenses. "Even a
>>> reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower
>>> healthcare costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the likely
>>> effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small," the CBO
>>> determined. That's chump change--a mere five bucks out of the $900 I blow on
>>> health insurance each month.
>>>
>>> Of course, there's an easy way for a doctor to avoid malpractice suits: do a
>>> good job. Do no harm and you probably won't get sued. And the courts are
>>> good at throwing out frivolous lawsuits before they become expensive.
>>>
>>> Contrary to corporate belief, patients don't undergo surgery in hope of
>>> striking it rich as the result of some medical mishap. And victims rarely
>>> sue. Those who do are desperate for justice and money to cover the
>>> additional medical care necessitated by their doctor's incompetence.
>>>
>>> Consider, for example, the case of Yvonne Kimura, a 49-year-old pharmacist
>>> from Fresno. Surgeons at the University of California, San Francisco Medical
>>> Center operated on her to remove a benign tumor in her leg. At one point in
>>> the operation they decided to cut a nerve without bothering to call in a
>>> specialist to determine whether it was a motor or sensory nerve. Big
>>> mistake. She can no longer move or feel her foot. She'll wear a brace the
>>> rest of her life. A San Francisco jury awarded her $3.3 million in punitive
>>> plus $286,000 in future wage loss and medical expenses. Would you trade
>>> places with Ms. Kimura, even for $3.6 million?
>>>
>>> Like 26 other states, however, California already caps punitive damages at
>>> $250,000. Mr. Kimura collected just $536,000, minus legal fees that may have
>>> run as high as one third. To Republicans who believe she got what she
>>> deserves: get in touch. I'll gladly smash one of your legs with a
>>> sledgehammer for half a million bucks, but I get the TV rights. Operators
>>> are standing by.
>>>
>>> Let's look at another example of "out of control" malpractice litigation. A
>>> Durham, North Carolina woman who suffered a "horror show of medical
>>> complications after her wisdom teeth were pulled" set the 2002 state record
>>> for a jury award: $5 million. Her oral surgeon's slowness and clumsiness
>>> caused her "nerve damage, a bad jaw joint and excruciating pain." She
>>> required pain medicine so powerful that it caused her an impacted bowel
>>> ailment, requiring the removal of two-thirds of her colon, a large part of
>>> her small intestine and her reproductive organs. $5 million can't compensate
>>> for the fact that she will never bear children. $500 million wouldn't get
>>> close, but George W. Bush thinks $250,000 is more than sufficient.
>>>
>>> Or how about this one: On November 9, 1992, Maryland resident Valerie Shea
>>> was (correctly) given an emergency Caesarean section at Anne Arundel Medical
>>> Center. But after her son Patrick was delivered, he was still suffering from
>>> fetal tachycardia, a condition which made his heart race at over 200 beats
>>> per minute and turned his skin blue. He was suffocating. Her pediatrician
>>> placed an oxygen mask on Patrick and put ice on his cheeks to revive him,
>>> but mistakenly waited 56 minutes before sticking a breathing tube down his
>>> throat. Finally, 80 minutes after the birth, the doctor took a nurse's
>>> suggestion and administered the heart medication adenosine. Patrick lived.
>>> But he suffered severe brain injuries during that crucial hour and 20
>>> minutes. With an IQ of 49, he is in special education and requires 24-hour
>>> care.
>>>
>>> When he was nine years old, Patrick's parents sued the pediatrician and
>>> hospital after a nurse who had witnessed the birth finally stepped forward
>>> and told them what had happened. A jury handed them $1.4 million for the
>>> child's future medical expenses, $3.5 million for his lost earning capacity
>>> and $1.5 million for pain and suffering.
>>>
>>> "Every day, we worried, what will happen to him when we're gone," Patrick's
>>> mom said after the verdict. "Now we don't have to worry." Seems like a fair
>>> use of the insurance company's $6.4 million, not to mention my five bucks."
>>>
>>>   BEN C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> "Health insurance costs as well as physician's malpractice premiums have
>>>> NOTHING to do with lawsuits, and everything to do with insurance company
>>>> mismanagement, poor investments, and the increase in healthcare needs
>>>> caused by malpractice."
>>>>
>>>> This is the biggest lie since Lenin and crock of shit believed in.  It has
>>>> everything to do with costs of medical care.
>>>>
>>>> I spent 15 years working in a hospital.  I functioned as physicians extra
>>>> hands. It was a charity hospital and as such was shielded by South
>>>> Carolina to maximum tort awards for negligence.
>>>>
>>>> Medicine is an 'Art'.  A Physician uses his education and experience to
>>>> make medical judgments.  Occasionally there are screw ups.  Some of these
>>>> screw ups result in severe injury and death.  Because of the total numbers
>>>> of hospital procedures involved, these screw ups happen daily.  The
>>>> reasons are many.
>>>>
>>>> The biggest reason is so called 'human error'.  And this is where law
>>>> suits arise.  And tort lawyers jump on these instances like hyenas on a
>>>> dead zebra.  The costs of defending Hospitals, Medical Clinics, Doctors
>>>> and other medical personal are outrageous.  These costs are thru putted to
>>>> the patients, all the patients.
>>>>
>>>> When I have time, or somewhere way back in the archives, I have answered
>>>> the question as to why 'mistakes' occur.  For this post I will say the
>>>> biggest reason why mistakes occur is the physical impossibility of
>>>> providing 100% infallible medical care.
>>>>
>>>> The impossibility occurs because economic limitations. Economic resources,
>>>> sometimes called 'wealth' are not unlimited. Because wealth is finite is
>>>> the reason why 'Marxism' fails.
>>>>
>>>> Wealth is created by man working.  It is the value of his efforts.  It is
>>>> not created my mandate of the Government.  If a person gets to keep the
>>>> results of his efforts, he works more, harder.  If he gets his efforts
>>>> confiscated then why work?
>>>>
>>>> This is a famous story that Ronald Reagan oft told.  It is important for
>>>> intellectuals that seek to 'spread the wealth' need to comprehend yet fail
>>>> to.
>>>>
>>>> Read and attempt to understand:
>>>>
>>>> Red Hen
>>>>
>>>> A modern day little red hen may not sound like or appear to be a quotable
>>>> authority on economics but then some authorities aren't worth quoting.
>>>>
>>>> About a year ago I imposed a little poetry on you. It was called "The
>>>> Incredible Bread Machine" and made a lot of sense with reference to
>>>> matters economic. You didn't object too much so having gotten away with it
>>>> once I'm going to try again. This is a little treatise on basic economics
>>>> called "The Modern little Red Hen."
>>>>
>>>> Once upon a time there was a little red hen who scratched about the
>>>> barnyard until she uncovered some grains of wheat. She called her
>>>> neighbors and said 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to eat.
>>>> Who will help me plant it?'
>>>>
>>>> "Not I, " said the cow.
>>>>
>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>
>>>> "Not I," said the pig.
>>>>
>>>> "Not I," said the goose.
>>>>
>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen. And she did. The wheat grew tall
>>>> and ripened into golden grain. "Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked the
>>>> little red hen.
>>>>
>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>
>>>> "Out of my classification," said the pig.
>>>>
>>>> "I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
>>>>
>>>> "I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.
>>>>
>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen, and she did.
>>>>
>>>> At last the time came to bake the bread. "Who will help me bake bread?"
>>>> asked the little red hen.
>>>>
>>>> "That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
>>>>
>>>> "I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
>>>>
>>>> "I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
>>>>
>>>> "If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.
>>>>
>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen.
>>>>
>>>> She baked five loaves and held them up for the neighbors to see.
>>>>
>>>> They all wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little red
>>>> hen said, "No, I can eat the five loaves myself."
>>>>
>>>> "Excess profits," cried the cow.
>>>>
>>>> "Capitalist leech," screamed the duck.
>>>>
>>>> "I demand equal rights," yelled the goose.
>>>>
>>>> And the pig just grunted.
>>>>
>>>> And they painted "unfair" picket signs and marched round and around the
>>>> little red hen shouting obscenities.
>>>>
>>>> When the government agent came, he said to the little red hen, "You must
>>>> not be greedy."
>>>>
>>>> "But I earned the bread," said the little red hen.
>>>>
>>>> "Exactly," said the agent. "That's the wonderful free enterprise system.
>>>> Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our modern
>>>> government regulations productive workers must divide their products with
>>>> the idle."
>>>>
>>>> And they lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who
>>>> smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, I am grateful." But her neighbors
>>>> wondered why she never again baked any more bread.
>>>>
>>>> From Ronald Reagan...  Reagan In His Own Voice (Audio book/download) ^ |
>>>> November 1976 | Ronald Reagan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While this story is called 'Red Hen', there is an analogus story about a
>>>> baker and loaves of bread.
>>>>
>>>> This story explains the 'Ukrainian Holodomor'.  Luckly my Grandparents
>>>> were here not there.  Thru relatives and friends, I got the story and the
>>>> reason it occurred.  The reason can be explained by 'Marxism' and
>>>> 'Government Control'.
>>>>
>>>> Ed K
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>       
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