[Rhodes22-list] Comment to Philidelphia Lawyer about medical costs

[Benjamin Cittadino]

So why does New Jersey have so many toxic waste sites and California so many
lawyers?



New Jersey got first choice.




Believe me, I've heard 'em all.



Ben C.




hparsons wrote:
> 
> But but but Brad, Lawyer jokes are FUN. Most of the good ones that I 
> know came from lawyers! The guys my wife used to work for had a 
> collection of them on the table in their lobby.
> 
> On tort reform - Here's my "Herb amendments" to your suggestions.
> 
> 1) Reverse damages are always allowed, not just in < 100k
>   1a) The above are payable by the attorney if he took the case on 
> consignment, to the same percentage at which he took the case. That 
> would end the "let's roll the dice and see what happens" contingency cases
>   1b) All of the above applies to class action suits as well.
> 
> 2) Do away with the "deep pockets" rules. If your company has 
> 10,000,000,000 in assets, and the party that was 90% at fault is 
> "judgement proof", because he owes more than he's worth, you should 
> STILL only be expected to pay only 10% of the judgment.
> 
> 
> 
> Brad Haslett wrote:
>> Herb,
>>
>> I look forward to the debate with Ben on this issue after the
>> election.  Actually, the same 'cure' for health-care will work for
>> unnecessary lawsuits.  Getting sick and getting hurt "happens".  The
>> solution to health care is to tame the extreme ends of the bell curve.
>>  Here's my idea for runaway legal suits.  First, if what you have to
>> sue over isn't worth at least $100,000, then you have to pay for the
>> other parties defense if you lose plus their time and aggravation.
>> That would eliminate crap like what we just went through with our dump
>> truck loss last year.  Second, if you're worth more than 2 million,
>> the folks left behind will be just fine - set a limit on what a
>> person's injuries or "worth" is, no matter how crass or cold that may
>> sound.
>>
>> Odd as it may seem, I'll sit out the lawyer jokes and the "Ben
>> bashing". He's like a lot of my lawyer friends - good guys, " just
>> can't see the forest for the trees".
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>> wrote:
>>   
>>> Ben,
>>>
>>> Didn't you just tell us a few posts back that "Punitive damages are a
>>> non-issue. They are almost never awarded, and when they are a Judge
>>> usually minimizes them (by remitting the jury's verdict)."
>>>
>>> If that's the case, then limiting something that is almost never
>>> awarded, and usually minimized when they are, would hardly seem to be a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Can we start telling lawyer jokes now?
>>>
>>>
>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>     
>>>> Tootle;
>>>>
>>>> I'll debate tort reform with you after the election if you really want
>>>> to,
>>>> but for now be satisfied with the following article which tells the
>>>> "other
>>>> side" of the story.  Anyone who reads your "position paper" may want a
>>>> quick
>>>> answer. I don't agree with everything in this article but it's close
>>>> enough
>>>> to give people the idea.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who Wants To Become a Medical Malpractice Millionaire?
>>>> The Phony Tort Reform Crisis
>>>>
>>>> by Ted Rall
>>>>
>>>> On a recent episode of "Fear Factor," two flat-tummied babes in hot
>>>> pants
>>>> and jogging bras agreed to be locked into a glass coffin with 500
>>>> panicky
>>>> tarantulas--"we're adding crickets to keep the tarantulas active," the
>>>> show's host explained helpfully--as their boyfriends sawed a metal bar
>>>> to
>>>> free them. At stake in this ordeal was the chance to proceed to the
>>>> next of
>>>> eight elimination rounds, the survivors of which were promised one
>>>> million
>>>> dollars. It's amazing what people will do for money.
>>>>
>>>> Still, there are limits. How much money would you require in order to
>>>> consent to having your leg chopped off? A finger? Would you agree to be
>>>> blinded for $1 million? $10 million? Would you let yourself be killed?
>>>> After
>>>> all, you're going to die anyway. Wouldn't passing away painlessly,
>>>> under
>>>> anesthesia, be worth the price if you believed that your family would
>>>> become
>>>> wealthy as a result?
>>>>
>>>> If you're rational, you think these are crazy questions. Good health, a
>>>> sound body, life itself are all priceless. No amount of money can
>>>> compensate
>>>> you for unnecessarily losing a function or body part. And that's what
>>>> the
>>>> Bush Administration and its medical industry allies think too. Under
>>>> their
>>>> proposed "tort reform" legislation, you'll receive virtually nothing if
>>>> you're butchered by a careless doctor.
>>>>
>>>> A jury can award two classes of damages to a victim of medical
>>>> malpractice:
>>>> economic and punitive. Economic damages compensate a patient for future
>>>> wages lost as a result of a doctor's mistake; punitive awards account
>>>> for
>>>> other victims who may not have sued, They also send a warning to other
>>>> doctors not to behave negligently. Bush wants to slap a limit on
>>>> economic
>>>> damages, but with the average household earning about $40,000 a year,
>>>> lost
>>>> wages tend to be relatively low. The current proposal focuses on the
>>>> punitive component because it comprises the biggest part of large
>>>> damage
>>>> awards. Bush wants to limit punitive damages to $250,000.
>>>>
>>>> "This liability system, I'm telling you, is out of control," Bush says.
>>>> "Because the system is so unpredictable, there is a constant risk of
>>>> being
>>>> hit by a massive jury award. It's costly for the doctors, it's costly
>>>> for
>>>> small businesses, it's costly for hospitals, it is really costly for
>>>> patients."
>>>>
>>>> First it's Iraq. Then Social Security. Now more lies to create a phony
>>>> torts
>>>> crisis.
>>>>
>>>> The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office finds that the costs
>>>> associated
>>>> with malpractice--buying insurance and paying out damage
>>>> awards--amounts to
>>>> less than two percent of America's skyrocketing healthcare expenses.
>>>> "Even a
>>>> reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower
>>>> healthcare costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the
>>>> likely
>>>> effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small," the CBO
>>>> determined. That's chump change--a mere five bucks out of the $900 I
>>>> blow on
>>>> health insurance each month.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, there's an easy way for a doctor to avoid malpractice suits:
>>>> do a
>>>> good job. Do no harm and you probably won't get sued. And the courts
>>>> are
>>>> good at throwing out frivolous lawsuits before they become expensive.
>>>>
>>>> Contrary to corporate belief, patients don't undergo surgery in hope of
>>>> striking it rich as the result of some medical mishap. And victims
>>>> rarely
>>>> sue. Those who do are desperate for justice and money to cover the
>>>> additional medical care necessitated by their doctor's incompetence.
>>>>
>>>> Consider, for example, the case of Yvonne Kimura, a 49-year-old
>>>> pharmacist
>>>> from Fresno. Surgeons at the University of California, San Francisco
>>>> Medical
>>>> Center operated on her to remove a benign tumor in her leg. At one
>>>> point in
>>>> the operation they decided to cut a nerve without bothering to call in
>>>> a
>>>> specialist to determine whether it was a motor or sensory nerve. Big
>>>> mistake. She can no longer move or feel her foot. She'll wear a brace
>>>> the
>>>> rest of her life. A San Francisco jury awarded her $3.3 million in
>>>> punitive
>>>> plus $286,000 in future wage loss and medical expenses. Would you trade
>>>> places with Ms. Kimura, even for $3.6 million?
>>>>
>>>> Like 26 other states, however, California already caps punitive damages
>>>> at
>>>> $250,000. Mr. Kimura collected just $536,000, minus legal fees that may
>>>> have
>>>> run as high as one third. To Republicans who believe she got what she
>>>> deserves: get in touch. I'll gladly smash one of your legs with a
>>>> sledgehammer for half a million bucks, but I get the TV rights.
>>>> Operators
>>>> are standing by.
>>>>
>>>> Let's look at another example of "out of control" malpractice
>>>> litigation. A
>>>> Durham, North Carolina woman who suffered a "horror show of medical
>>>> complications after her wisdom teeth were pulled" set the 2002 state
>>>> record
>>>> for a jury award: $5 million. Her oral surgeon's slowness and
>>>> clumsiness
>>>> caused her "nerve damage, a bad jaw joint and excruciating pain." She
>>>> required pain medicine so powerful that it caused her an impacted bowel
>>>> ailment, requiring the removal of two-thirds of her colon, a large part
>>>> of
>>>> her small intestine and her reproductive organs. $5 million can't
>>>> compensate
>>>> for the fact that she will never bear children. $500 million wouldn't
>>>> get
>>>> close, but George W. Bush thinks $250,000 is more than sufficient.
>>>>
>>>> Or how about this one: On November 9, 1992, Maryland resident Valerie
>>>> Shea
>>>> was (correctly) given an emergency Caesarean section at Anne Arundel
>>>> Medical
>>>> Center. But after her son Patrick was delivered, he was still suffering
>>>> from
>>>> fetal tachycardia, a condition which made his heart race at over 200
>>>> beats
>>>> per minute and turned his skin blue. He was suffocating. Her
>>>> pediatrician
>>>> placed an oxygen mask on Patrick and put ice on his cheeks to revive
>>>> him,
>>>> but mistakenly waited 56 minutes before sticking a breathing tube down
>>>> his
>>>> throat. Finally, 80 minutes after the birth, the doctor took a nurse's
>>>> suggestion and administered the heart medication adenosine. Patrick
>>>> lived.
>>>> But he suffered severe brain injuries during that crucial hour and 20
>>>> minutes. With an IQ of 49, he is in special education and requires
>>>> 24-hour
>>>> care.
>>>>
>>>> When he was nine years old, Patrick's parents sued the pediatrician and
>>>> hospital after a nurse who had witnessed the birth finally stepped
>>>> forward
>>>> and told them what had happened. A jury handed them $1.4 million for
>>>> the
>>>> child's future medical expenses, $3.5 million for his lost earning
>>>> capacity
>>>> and $1.5 million for pain and suffering.
>>>>
>>>> "Every day, we worried, what will happen to him when we're gone,"
>>>> Patrick's
>>>> mom said after the verdict. "Now we don't have to worry." Seems like a
>>>> fair
>>>> use of the insurance company's $6.4 million, not to mention my five
>>>> bucks."
>>>>
>>>>   BEN C.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>> "Health insurance costs as well as physician's malpractice premiums
>>>>> have
>>>>> NOTHING to do with lawsuits, and everything to do with insurance
>>>>> company
>>>>> mismanagement, poor investments, and the increase in healthcare needs
>>>>> caused by malpractice."
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the biggest lie since Lenin and crock of shit believed in.  It
>>>>> has
>>>>> everything to do with costs of medical care.
>>>>>
>>>>> I spent 15 years working in a hospital.  I functioned as physicians
>>>>> extra
>>>>> hands. It was a charity hospital and as such was shielded by South
>>>>> Carolina to maximum tort awards for negligence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Medicine is an 'Art'.  A Physician uses his education and experience
>>>>> to
>>>>> make medical judgments.  Occasionally there are screw ups.  Some of
>>>>> these
>>>>> screw ups result in severe injury and death.  Because of the total
>>>>> numbers
>>>>> of hospital procedures involved, these screw ups happen daily.  The
>>>>> reasons are many.
>>>>>
>>>>> The biggest reason is so called 'human error'.  And this is where law
>>>>> suits arise.  And tort lawyers jump on these instances like hyenas on
>>>>> a
>>>>> dead zebra.  The costs of defending Hospitals, Medical Clinics,
>>>>> Doctors
>>>>> and other medical personal are outrageous.  These costs are thru
>>>>> putted to
>>>>> the patients, all the patients.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I have time, or somewhere way back in the archives, I have
>>>>> answered
>>>>> the question as to why 'mistakes' occur.  For this post I will say the
>>>>> biggest reason why mistakes occur is the physical impossibility of
>>>>> providing 100% infallible medical care.
>>>>>
>>>>> The impossibility occurs because economic limitations. Economic
>>>>> resources,
>>>>> sometimes called 'wealth' are not unlimited. Because wealth is finite
>>>>> is
>>>>> the reason why 'Marxism' fails.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wealth is created by man working.  It is the value of his efforts.  It
>>>>> is
>>>>> not created my mandate of the Government.  If a person gets to keep
>>>>> the
>>>>> results of his efforts, he works more, harder.  If he gets his efforts
>>>>> confiscated then why work?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a famous story that Ronald Reagan oft told.  It is important
>>>>> for
>>>>> intellectuals that seek to 'spread the wealth' need to comprehend yet
>>>>> fail
>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read and attempt to understand:
>>>>>
>>>>> Red Hen
>>>>>
>>>>> A modern day little red hen may not sound like or appear to be a
>>>>> quotable
>>>>> authority on economics but then some authorities aren't worth quoting.
>>>>>
>>>>> About a year ago I imposed a little poetry on you. It was called "The
>>>>> Incredible Bread Machine" and made a lot of sense with reference to
>>>>> matters economic. You didn't object too much so having gotten away
>>>>> with it
>>>>> once I'm going to try again. This is a little treatise on basic
>>>>> economics
>>>>> called "The Modern little Red Hen."
>>>>>
>>>>> Once upon a time there was a little red hen who scratched about the
>>>>> barnyard until she uncovered some grains of wheat. She called her
>>>>> neighbors and said 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to
>>>>> eat.
>>>>> Who will help me plant it?'
>>>>>
>>>>> "Not I, " said the cow.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Not I," said the pig.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Not I," said the goose.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen. And she did. The wheat grew
>>>>> tall
>>>>> and ripened into golden grain. "Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked
>>>>> the
>>>>> little red hen.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Out of my classification," said the pig.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen, and she did.
>>>>>
>>>>> At last the time came to bake the bread. "Who will help me bake
>>>>> bread?"
>>>>> asked the little red hen.
>>>>>
>>>>> "That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
>>>>>
>>>>> "If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen.
>>>>>
>>>>> She baked five loaves and held them up for the neighbors to see.
>>>>>
>>>>> They all wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little
>>>>> red
>>>>> hen said, "No, I can eat the five loaves myself."
>>>>>
>>>>> "Excess profits," cried the cow.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Capitalist leech," screamed the duck.
>>>>>
>>>>> "I demand equal rights," yelled the goose.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the pig just grunted.
>>>>>
>>>>> And they painted "unfair" picket signs and marched round and around
>>>>> the
>>>>> little red hen shouting obscenities.
>>>>>
>>>>> When the government agent came, he said to the little red hen, "You
>>>>> must
>>>>> not be greedy."
>>>>>
>>>>> "But I earned the bread," said the little red hen.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Exactly," said the agent. "That's the wonderful free enterprise
>>>>> system.
>>>>> Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our
>>>>> modern
>>>>> government regulations productive workers must divide their products
>>>>> with
>>>>> the idle."
>>>>>
>>>>> And they lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who
>>>>> smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, I am grateful." But her neighbors
>>>>> wondered why she never again baked any more bread.
>>>>>
>>>>> From Ronald Reagan...  Reagan In His Own Voice (Audio book/download) ^
>>>>> |
>>>>> November 1976 | Ronald Reagan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> While this story is called 'Red Hen', there is an analogus story about
>>>>> a
>>>>> baker and loaves of bread.
>>>>>
>>>>> This story explains the 'Ukrainian Holodomor'.  Luckly my Grandparents
>>>>> were here not there.  Thru relatives and friends, I got the story and
>>>>> the
>>>>> reason it occurred.  The reason can be explained by 'Marxism' and
>>>>> 'Government Control'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>       
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