[Rhodes22-list] Comment to Philidelphia Lawyer about medical costs

[Herb Parsons]

See, I TOLE you that the good ones come from lawyers.

My two favorites:

What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?
One's a slimy bottom-dwelling scum-sucker.
The other is a fish.

What do you call 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the lake?
A good start.


Benjamin Cittadino wrote:
> So why does New Jersey have so many toxic waste sites and California so many
> lawyers?
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> New Jersey got first choice.
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> Believe me, I've heard 'em all.
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> Ben C.
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> hparsons wrote:
>   
>> But but but Brad, Lawyer jokes are FUN. Most of the good ones that I 
>> know came from lawyers! The guys my wife used to work for had a 
>> collection of them on the table in their lobby.
>>
>> On tort reform - Here's my "Herb amendments" to your suggestions.
>>
>> 1) Reverse damages are always allowed, not just in < 100k
>>   1a) The above are payable by the attorney if he took the case on 
>> consignment, to the same percentage at which he took the case. That 
>> would end the "let's roll the dice and see what happens" contingency cases
>>   1b) All of the above applies to class action suits as well.
>>
>> 2) Do away with the "deep pockets" rules. If your company has 
>> 10,000,000,000 in assets, and the party that was 90% at fault is 
>> "judgement proof", because he owes more than he's worth, you should 
>> STILL only be expected to pay only 10% of the judgment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>     
>>> Herb,
>>>
>>> I look forward to the debate with Ben on this issue after the
>>> election.  Actually, the same 'cure' for health-care will work for
>>> unnecessary lawsuits.  Getting sick and getting hurt "happens".  The
>>> solution to health care is to tame the extreme ends of the bell curve.
>>>  Here's my idea for runaway legal suits.  First, if what you have to
>>> sue over isn't worth at least $100,000, then you have to pay for the
>>> other parties defense if you lose plus their time and aggravation.
>>> That would eliminate crap like what we just went through with our dump
>>> truck loss last year.  Second, if you're worth more than 2 million,
>>> the folks left behind will be just fine - set a limit on what a
>>> person's injuries or "worth" is, no matter how crass or cold that may
>>> sound.
>>>
>>> Odd as it may seem, I'll sit out the lawyer jokes and the "Ben
>>> bashing". He's like a lot of my lawyer friends - good guys, " just
>>> can't see the forest for the trees".
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Ben,
>>>>
>>>> Didn't you just tell us a few posts back that "Punitive damages are a
>>>> non-issue. They are almost never awarded, and when they are a Judge
>>>> usually minimizes them (by remitting the jury's verdict)."
>>>>
>>>> If that's the case, then limiting something that is almost never
>>>> awarded, and usually minimized when they are, would hardly seem to be a
>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> Can we start telling lawyer jokes now?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Tootle;
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll debate tort reform with you after the election if you really want
>>>>> to,
>>>>> but for now be satisfied with the following article which tells the
>>>>> "other
>>>>> side" of the story.  Anyone who reads your "position paper" may want a
>>>>> quick
>>>>> answer. I don't agree with everything in this article but it's close
>>>>> enough
>>>>> to give people the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Who Wants To Become a Medical Malpractice Millionaire?
>>>>> The Phony Tort Reform Crisis
>>>>>
>>>>> by Ted Rall
>>>>>
>>>>> On a recent episode of "Fear Factor," two flat-tummied babes in hot
>>>>> pants
>>>>> and jogging bras agreed to be locked into a glass coffin with 500
>>>>> panicky
>>>>> tarantulas--"we're adding crickets to keep the tarantulas active," the
>>>>> show's host explained helpfully--as their boyfriends sawed a metal bar
>>>>> to
>>>>> free them. At stake in this ordeal was the chance to proceed to the
>>>>> next of
>>>>> eight elimination rounds, the survivors of which were promised one
>>>>> million
>>>>> dollars. It's amazing what people will do for money.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still, there are limits. How much money would you require in order to
>>>>> consent to having your leg chopped off? A finger? Would you agree to be
>>>>> blinded for $1 million? $10 million? Would you let yourself be killed?
>>>>> After
>>>>> all, you're going to die anyway. Wouldn't passing away painlessly,
>>>>> under
>>>>> anesthesia, be worth the price if you believed that your family would
>>>>> become
>>>>> wealthy as a result?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're rational, you think these are crazy questions. Good health, a
>>>>> sound body, life itself are all priceless. No amount of money can
>>>>> compensate
>>>>> you for unnecessarily losing a function or body part. And that's what
>>>>> the
>>>>> Bush Administration and its medical industry allies think too. Under
>>>>> their
>>>>> proposed "tort reform" legislation, you'll receive virtually nothing if
>>>>> you're butchered by a careless doctor.
>>>>>
>>>>> A jury can award two classes of damages to a victim of medical
>>>>> malpractice:
>>>>> economic and punitive. Economic damages compensate a patient for future
>>>>> wages lost as a result of a doctor's mistake; punitive awards account
>>>>> for
>>>>> other victims who may not have sued, They also send a warning to other
>>>>> doctors not to behave negligently. Bush wants to slap a limit on
>>>>> economic
>>>>> damages, but with the average household earning about $40,000 a year,
>>>>> lost
>>>>> wages tend to be relatively low. The current proposal focuses on the
>>>>> punitive component because it comprises the biggest part of large
>>>>> damage
>>>>> awards. Bush wants to limit punitive damages to $250,000.
>>>>>
>>>>> "This liability system, I'm telling you, is out of control," Bush says.
>>>>> "Because the system is so unpredictable, there is a constant risk of
>>>>> being
>>>>> hit by a massive jury award. It's costly for the doctors, it's costly
>>>>> for
>>>>> small businesses, it's costly for hospitals, it is really costly for
>>>>> patients."
>>>>>
>>>>> First it's Iraq. Then Social Security. Now more lies to create a phony
>>>>> torts
>>>>> crisis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office finds that the costs
>>>>> associated
>>>>> with malpractice--buying insurance and paying out damage
>>>>> awards--amounts to
>>>>> less than two percent of America's skyrocketing healthcare expenses.
>>>>> "Even a
>>>>> reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower
>>>>> healthcare costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the
>>>>> likely
>>>>> effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small," the CBO
>>>>> determined. That's chump change--a mere five bucks out of the $900 I
>>>>> blow on
>>>>> health insurance each month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, there's an easy way for a doctor to avoid malpractice suits:
>>>>> do a
>>>>> good job. Do no harm and you probably won't get sued. And the courts
>>>>> are
>>>>> good at throwing out frivolous lawsuits before they become expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Contrary to corporate belief, patients don't undergo surgery in hope of
>>>>> striking it rich as the result of some medical mishap. And victims
>>>>> rarely
>>>>> sue. Those who do are desperate for justice and money to cover the
>>>>> additional medical care necessitated by their doctor's incompetence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider, for example, the case of Yvonne Kimura, a 49-year-old
>>>>> pharmacist
>>>>> from Fresno. Surgeons at the University of California, San Francisco
>>>>> Medical
>>>>> Center operated on her to remove a benign tumor in her leg. At one
>>>>> point in
>>>>> the operation they decided to cut a nerve without bothering to call in
>>>>> a
>>>>> specialist to determine whether it was a motor or sensory nerve. Big
>>>>> mistake. She can no longer move or feel her foot. She'll wear a brace
>>>>> the
>>>>> rest of her life. A San Francisco jury awarded her $3.3 million in
>>>>> punitive
>>>>> plus $286,000 in future wage loss and medical expenses. Would you trade
>>>>> places with Ms. Kimura, even for $3.6 million?
>>>>>
>>>>> Like 26 other states, however, California already caps punitive damages
>>>>> at
>>>>> $250,000. Mr. Kimura collected just $536,000, minus legal fees that may
>>>>> have
>>>>> run as high as one third. To Republicans who believe she got what she
>>>>> deserves: get in touch. I'll gladly smash one of your legs with a
>>>>> sledgehammer for half a million bucks, but I get the TV rights.
>>>>> Operators
>>>>> are standing by.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's look at another example of "out of control" malpractice
>>>>> litigation. A
>>>>> Durham, North Carolina woman who suffered a "horror show of medical
>>>>> complications after her wisdom teeth were pulled" set the 2002 state
>>>>> record
>>>>> for a jury award: $5 million. Her oral surgeon's slowness and
>>>>> clumsiness
>>>>> caused her "nerve damage, a bad jaw joint and excruciating pain." She
>>>>> required pain medicine so powerful that it caused her an impacted bowel
>>>>> ailment, requiring the removal of two-thirds of her colon, a large part
>>>>> of
>>>>> her small intestine and her reproductive organs. $5 million can't
>>>>> compensate
>>>>> for the fact that she will never bear children. $500 million wouldn't
>>>>> get
>>>>> close, but George W. Bush thinks $250,000 is more than sufficient.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or how about this one: On November 9, 1992, Maryland resident Valerie
>>>>> Shea
>>>>> was (correctly) given an emergency Caesarean section at Anne Arundel
>>>>> Medical
>>>>> Center. But after her son Patrick was delivered, he was still suffering
>>>>> from
>>>>> fetal tachycardia, a condition which made his heart race at over 200
>>>>> beats
>>>>> per minute and turned his skin blue. He was suffocating. Her
>>>>> pediatrician
>>>>> placed an oxygen mask on Patrick and put ice on his cheeks to revive
>>>>> him,
>>>>> but mistakenly waited 56 minutes before sticking a breathing tube down
>>>>> his
>>>>> throat. Finally, 80 minutes after the birth, the doctor took a nurse's
>>>>> suggestion and administered the heart medication adenosine. Patrick
>>>>> lived.
>>>>> But he suffered severe brain injuries during that crucial hour and 20
>>>>> minutes. With an IQ of 49, he is in special education and requires
>>>>> 24-hour
>>>>> care.
>>>>>
>>>>> When he was nine years old, Patrick's parents sued the pediatrician and
>>>>> hospital after a nurse who had witnessed the birth finally stepped
>>>>> forward
>>>>> and told them what had happened. A jury handed them $1.4 million for
>>>>> the
>>>>> child's future medical expenses, $3.5 million for his lost earning
>>>>> capacity
>>>>> and $1.5 million for pain and suffering.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Every day, we worried, what will happen to him when we're gone,"
>>>>> Patrick's
>>>>> mom said after the verdict. "Now we don't have to worry." Seems like a
>>>>> fair
>>>>> use of the insurance company's $6.4 million, not to mention my five
>>>>> bucks."
>>>>>
>>>>>   BEN C.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> "Health insurance costs as well as physician's malpractice premiums
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> NOTHING to do with lawsuits, and everything to do with insurance
>>>>>> company
>>>>>> mismanagement, poor investments, and the increase in healthcare needs
>>>>>> caused by malpractice."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is the biggest lie since Lenin and crock of shit believed in.  It
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> everything to do with costs of medical care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I spent 15 years working in a hospital.  I functioned as physicians
>>>>>> extra
>>>>>> hands. It was a charity hospital and as such was shielded by South
>>>>>> Carolina to maximum tort awards for negligence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Medicine is an 'Art'.  A Physician uses his education and experience
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make medical judgments.  Occasionally there are screw ups.  Some of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> screw ups result in severe injury and death.  Because of the total
>>>>>> numbers
>>>>>> of hospital procedures involved, these screw ups happen daily.  The
>>>>>> reasons are many.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The biggest reason is so called 'human error'.  And this is where law
>>>>>> suits arise.  And tort lawyers jump on these instances like hyenas on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> dead zebra.  The costs of defending Hospitals, Medical Clinics,
>>>>>> Doctors
>>>>>> and other medical personal are outrageous.  These costs are thru
>>>>>> putted to
>>>>>> the patients, all the patients.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I have time, or somewhere way back in the archives, I have
>>>>>> answered
>>>>>> the question as to why 'mistakes' occur.  For this post I will say the
>>>>>> biggest reason why mistakes occur is the physical impossibility of
>>>>>> providing 100% infallible medical care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The impossibility occurs because economic limitations. Economic
>>>>>> resources,
>>>>>> sometimes called 'wealth' are not unlimited. Because wealth is finite
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> the reason why 'Marxism' fails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wealth is created by man working.  It is the value of his efforts.  It
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not created my mandate of the Government.  If a person gets to keep
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> results of his efforts, he works more, harder.  If he gets his efforts
>>>>>> confiscated then why work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a famous story that Ronald Reagan oft told.  It is important
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> intellectuals that seek to 'spread the wealth' need to comprehend yet
>>>>>> fail
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read and attempt to understand:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Red Hen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A modern day little red hen may not sound like or appear to be a
>>>>>> quotable
>>>>>> authority on economics but then some authorities aren't worth quoting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About a year ago I imposed a little poetry on you. It was called "The
>>>>>> Incredible Bread Machine" and made a lot of sense with reference to
>>>>>> matters economic. You didn't object too much so having gotten away
>>>>>> with it
>>>>>> once I'm going to try again. This is a little treatise on basic
>>>>>> economics
>>>>>> called "The Modern little Red Hen."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once upon a time there was a little red hen who scratched about the
>>>>>> barnyard until she uncovered some grains of wheat. She called her
>>>>>> neighbors and said 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to
>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>> Who will help me plant it?'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Not I, " said the cow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Not I," said the pig.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Not I," said the goose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen. And she did. The wheat grew
>>>>>> tall
>>>>>> and ripened into golden grain. "Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> little red hen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Out of my classification," said the pig.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen, and she did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At last the time came to bake the bread. "Who will help me bake
>>>>>> bread?"
>>>>>> asked the little red hen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She baked five loaves and held them up for the neighbors to see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They all wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little
>>>>>> red
>>>>>> hen said, "No, I can eat the five loaves myself."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Excess profits," cried the cow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Capitalist leech," screamed the duck.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I demand equal rights," yelled the goose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the pig just grunted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they painted "unfair" picket signs and marched round and around
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> little red hen shouting obscenities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the government agent came, he said to the little red hen, "You
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> not be greedy."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "But I earned the bread," said the little red hen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Exactly," said the agent. "That's the wonderful free enterprise
>>>>>> system.
>>>>>> Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our
>>>>>> modern
>>>>>> government regulations productive workers must divide their products
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the idle."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who
>>>>>> smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, I am grateful." But her neighbors
>>>>>> wondered why she never again baked any more bread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From Ronald Reagan...  Reagan In His Own Voice (Audio book/download) ^
>>>>>> |
>>>>>> November 1976 | Ronald Reagan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While this story is called 'Red Hen', there is an analogus story about
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> baker and loaves of bread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This story explains the 'Ukrainian Holodomor'.  Luckly my Grandparents
>>>>>> were here not there.  Thru relatives and friends, I got the story and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> reason it occurred.  The reason can be explained by 'Marxism' and
>>>>>> 'Government Control'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
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>>>>         
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