[Rhodes22-list] Comment to Philidelphia Lawyer about medical costs

[Brad Haslett]

Ok, since Ben started this-

You heard about the lawyer who set-up an office as the only attorney
in a small town and almost starved to death?

Then another attorney moved to town and he became wealthy!

Brad

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> See, I TOLE you that the good ones come from lawyers.
>
> My two favorites:
>
> What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?
> One's a slimy bottom-dwelling scum-sucker.
> The other is a fish.
>
> What do you call 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the lake?
> A good start.
>
>
> Benjamin Cittadino wrote:
>> So why does New Jersey have so many toxic waste sites and California so many
>> lawyers?
>>
>>
>>
>> New Jersey got first choice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Believe me, I've heard 'em all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ben C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> hparsons wrote:
>>
>>> But but but Brad, Lawyer jokes are FUN. Most of the good ones that I
>>> know came from lawyers! The guys my wife used to work for had a
>>> collection of them on the table in their lobby.
>>>
>>> On tort reform - Here's my "Herb amendments" to your suggestions.
>>>
>>> 1) Reverse damages are always allowed, not just in < 100k
>>>   1a) The above are payable by the attorney if he took the case on
>>> consignment, to the same percentage at which he took the case. That
>>> would end the "let's roll the dice and see what happens" contingency cases
>>>   1b) All of the above applies to class action suits as well.
>>>
>>> 2) Do away with the "deep pockets" rules. If your company has
>>> 10,000,000,000 in assets, and the party that was 90% at fault is
>>> "judgement proof", because he owes more than he's worth, you should
>>> STILL only be expected to pay only 10% of the judgment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Herb,
>>>>
>>>> I look forward to the debate with Ben on this issue after the
>>>> election.  Actually, the same 'cure' for health-care will work for
>>>> unnecessary lawsuits.  Getting sick and getting hurt "happens".  The
>>>> solution to health care is to tame the extreme ends of the bell curve.
>>>>  Here's my idea for runaway legal suits.  First, if what you have to
>>>> sue over isn't worth at least $100,000, then you have to pay for the
>>>> other parties defense if you lose plus their time and aggravation.
>>>> That would eliminate crap like what we just went through with our dump
>>>> truck loss last year.  Second, if you're worth more than 2 million,
>>>> the folks left behind will be just fine - set a limit on what a
>>>> person's injuries or "worth" is, no matter how crass or cold that may
>>>> sound.
>>>>
>>>> Odd as it may seem, I'll sit out the lawyer jokes and the "Ben
>>>> bashing". He's like a lot of my lawyer friends - good guys, " just
>>>> can't see the forest for the trees".
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't you just tell us a few posts back that "Punitive damages are a
>>>>> non-issue. They are almost never awarded, and when they are a Judge
>>>>> usually minimizes them (by remitting the jury's verdict)."
>>>>>
>>>>> If that's the case, then limiting something that is almost never
>>>>> awarded, and usually minimized when they are, would hardly seem to be a
>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we start telling lawyer jokes now?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tootle;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll debate tort reform with you after the election if you really want
>>>>>> to,
>>>>>> but for now be satisfied with the following article which tells the
>>>>>> "other
>>>>>> side" of the story.  Anyone who reads your "position paper" may want a
>>>>>> quick
>>>>>> answer. I don't agree with everything in this article but it's close
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> to give people the idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who Wants To Become a Medical Malpractice Millionaire?
>>>>>> The Phony Tort Reform Crisis
>>>>>>
>>>>>> by Ted Rall
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a recent episode of "Fear Factor," two flat-tummied babes in hot
>>>>>> pants
>>>>>> and jogging bras agreed to be locked into a glass coffin with 500
>>>>>> panicky
>>>>>> tarantulas--"we're adding crickets to keep the tarantulas active," the
>>>>>> show's host explained helpfully--as their boyfriends sawed a metal bar
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> free them. At stake in this ordeal was the chance to proceed to the
>>>>>> next of
>>>>>> eight elimination rounds, the survivors of which were promised one
>>>>>> million
>>>>>> dollars. It's amazing what people will do for money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, there are limits. How much money would you require in order to
>>>>>> consent to having your leg chopped off? A finger? Would you agree to be
>>>>>> blinded for $1 million? $10 million? Would you let yourself be killed?
>>>>>> After
>>>>>> all, you're going to die anyway. Wouldn't passing away painlessly,
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> anesthesia, be worth the price if you believed that your family would
>>>>>> become
>>>>>> wealthy as a result?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're rational, you think these are crazy questions. Good health, a
>>>>>> sound body, life itself are all priceless. No amount of money can
>>>>>> compensate
>>>>>> you for unnecessarily losing a function or body part. And that's what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Bush Administration and its medical industry allies think too. Under
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> proposed "tort reform" legislation, you'll receive virtually nothing if
>>>>>> you're butchered by a careless doctor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A jury can award two classes of damages to a victim of medical
>>>>>> malpractice:
>>>>>> economic and punitive. Economic damages compensate a patient for future
>>>>>> wages lost as a result of a doctor's mistake; punitive awards account
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> other victims who may not have sued, They also send a warning to other
>>>>>> doctors not to behave negligently. Bush wants to slap a limit on
>>>>>> economic
>>>>>> damages, but with the average household earning about $40,000 a year,
>>>>>> lost
>>>>>> wages tend to be relatively low. The current proposal focuses on the
>>>>>> punitive component because it comprises the biggest part of large
>>>>>> damage
>>>>>> awards. Bush wants to limit punitive damages to $250,000.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "This liability system, I'm telling you, is out of control," Bush says.
>>>>>> "Because the system is so unpredictable, there is a constant risk of
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> hit by a massive jury award. It's costly for the doctors, it's costly
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> small businesses, it's costly for hospitals, it is really costly for
>>>>>> patients."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First it's Iraq. Then Social Security. Now more lies to create a phony
>>>>>> torts
>>>>>> crisis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office finds that the costs
>>>>>> associated
>>>>>> with malpractice--buying insurance and paying out damage
>>>>>> awards--amounts to
>>>>>> less than two percent of America's skyrocketing healthcare expenses.
>>>>>> "Even a
>>>>>> reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower
>>>>>> healthcare costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small," the CBO
>>>>>> determined. That's chump change--a mere five bucks out of the $900 I
>>>>>> blow on
>>>>>> health insurance each month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, there's an easy way for a doctor to avoid malpractice suits:
>>>>>> do a
>>>>>> good job. Do no harm and you probably won't get sued. And the courts
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> good at throwing out frivolous lawsuits before they become expensive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Contrary to corporate belief, patients don't undergo surgery in hope of
>>>>>> striking it rich as the result of some medical mishap. And victims
>>>>>> rarely
>>>>>> sue. Those who do are desperate for justice and money to cover the
>>>>>> additional medical care necessitated by their doctor's incompetence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Consider, for example, the case of Yvonne Kimura, a 49-year-old
>>>>>> pharmacist
>>>>>> from Fresno. Surgeons at the University of California, San Francisco
>>>>>> Medical
>>>>>> Center operated on her to remove a benign tumor in her leg. At one
>>>>>> point in
>>>>>> the operation they decided to cut a nerve without bothering to call in
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> specialist to determine whether it was a motor or sensory nerve. Big
>>>>>> mistake. She can no longer move or feel her foot. She'll wear a brace
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rest of her life. A San Francisco jury awarded her $3.3 million in
>>>>>> punitive
>>>>>> plus $286,000 in future wage loss and medical expenses. Would you trade
>>>>>> places with Ms. Kimura, even for $3.6 million?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like 26 other states, however, California already caps punitive damages
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> $250,000. Mr. Kimura collected just $536,000, minus legal fees that may
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> run as high as one third. To Republicans who believe she got what she
>>>>>> deserves: get in touch. I'll gladly smash one of your legs with a
>>>>>> sledgehammer for half a million bucks, but I get the TV rights.
>>>>>> Operators
>>>>>> are standing by.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's look at another example of "out of control" malpractice
>>>>>> litigation. A
>>>>>> Durham, North Carolina woman who suffered a "horror show of medical
>>>>>> complications after her wisdom teeth were pulled" set the 2002 state
>>>>>> record
>>>>>> for a jury award: $5 million. Her oral surgeon's slowness and
>>>>>> clumsiness
>>>>>> caused her "nerve damage, a bad jaw joint and excruciating pain." She
>>>>>> required pain medicine so powerful that it caused her an impacted bowel
>>>>>> ailment, requiring the removal of two-thirds of her colon, a large part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> her small intestine and her reproductive organs. $5 million can't
>>>>>> compensate
>>>>>> for the fact that she will never bear children. $500 million wouldn't
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> close, but George W. Bush thinks $250,000 is more than sufficient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or how about this one: On November 9, 1992, Maryland resident Valerie
>>>>>> Shea
>>>>>> was (correctly) given an emergency Caesarean section at Anne Arundel
>>>>>> Medical
>>>>>> Center. But after her son Patrick was delivered, he was still suffering
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> fetal tachycardia, a condition which made his heart race at over 200
>>>>>> beats
>>>>>> per minute and turned his skin blue. He was suffocating. Her
>>>>>> pediatrician
>>>>>> placed an oxygen mask on Patrick and put ice on his cheeks to revive
>>>>>> him,
>>>>>> but mistakenly waited 56 minutes before sticking a breathing tube down
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> throat. Finally, 80 minutes after the birth, the doctor took a nurse's
>>>>>> suggestion and administered the heart medication adenosine. Patrick
>>>>>> lived.
>>>>>> But he suffered severe brain injuries during that crucial hour and 20
>>>>>> minutes. With an IQ of 49, he is in special education and requires
>>>>>> 24-hour
>>>>>> care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When he was nine years old, Patrick's parents sued the pediatrician and
>>>>>> hospital after a nurse who had witnessed the birth finally stepped
>>>>>> forward
>>>>>> and told them what had happened. A jury handed them $1.4 million for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> child's future medical expenses, $3.5 million for his lost earning
>>>>>> capacity
>>>>>> and $1.5 million for pain and suffering.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Every day, we worried, what will happen to him when we're gone,"
>>>>>> Patrick's
>>>>>> mom said after the verdict. "Now we don't have to worry." Seems like a
>>>>>> fair
>>>>>> use of the insurance company's $6.4 million, not to mention my five
>>>>>> bucks."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   BEN C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Health insurance costs as well as physician's malpractice premiums
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> NOTHING to do with lawsuits, and everything to do with insurance
>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>> mismanagement, poor investments, and the increase in healthcare needs
>>>>>>> caused by malpractice."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is the biggest lie since Lenin and crock of shit believed in.  It
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> everything to do with costs of medical care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I spent 15 years working in a hospital.  I functioned as physicians
>>>>>>> extra
>>>>>>> hands. It was a charity hospital and as such was shielded by South
>>>>>>> Carolina to maximum tort awards for negligence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Medicine is an 'Art'.  A Physician uses his education and experience
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make medical judgments.  Occasionally there are screw ups.  Some of
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> screw ups result in severe injury and death.  Because of the total
>>>>>>> numbers
>>>>>>> of hospital procedures involved, these screw ups happen daily.  The
>>>>>>> reasons are many.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The biggest reason is so called 'human error'.  And this is where law
>>>>>>> suits arise.  And tort lawyers jump on these instances like hyenas on
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> dead zebra.  The costs of defending Hospitals, Medical Clinics,
>>>>>>> Doctors
>>>>>>> and other medical personal are outrageous.  These costs are thru
>>>>>>> putted to
>>>>>>> the patients, all the patients.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I have time, or somewhere way back in the archives, I have
>>>>>>> answered
>>>>>>> the question as to why 'mistakes' occur.  For this post I will say the
>>>>>>> biggest reason why mistakes occur is the physical impossibility of
>>>>>>> providing 100% infallible medical care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The impossibility occurs because economic limitations. Economic
>>>>>>> resources,
>>>>>>> sometimes called 'wealth' are not unlimited. Because wealth is finite
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the reason why 'Marxism' fails.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wealth is created by man working.  It is the value of his efforts.  It
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not created my mandate of the Government.  If a person gets to keep
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> results of his efforts, he works more, harder.  If he gets his efforts
>>>>>>> confiscated then why work?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a famous story that Ronald Reagan oft told.  It is important
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> intellectuals that seek to 'spread the wealth' need to comprehend yet
>>>>>>> fail
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read and attempt to understand:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Red Hen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A modern day little red hen may not sound like or appear to be a
>>>>>>> quotable
>>>>>>> authority on economics but then some authorities aren't worth quoting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About a year ago I imposed a little poetry on you. It was called "The
>>>>>>> Incredible Bread Machine" and made a lot of sense with reference to
>>>>>>> matters economic. You didn't object too much so having gotten away
>>>>>>> with it
>>>>>>> once I'm going to try again. This is a little treatise on basic
>>>>>>> economics
>>>>>>> called "The Modern little Red Hen."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once upon a time there was a little red hen who scratched about the
>>>>>>> barnyard until she uncovered some grains of wheat. She called her
>>>>>>> neighbors and said 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to
>>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>>> Who will help me plant it?'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Not I, " said the cow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Not I," said the pig.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Not I," said the goose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen. And she did. The wheat grew
>>>>>>> tall
>>>>>>> and ripened into golden grain. "Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> little red hen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Out of my classification," said the pig.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen, and she did.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At last the time came to bake the bread. "Who will help me bake
>>>>>>> bread?"
>>>>>>> asked the little red hen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She baked five loaves and held them up for the neighbors to see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They all wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little
>>>>>>> red
>>>>>>> hen said, "No, I can eat the five loaves myself."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Excess profits," cried the cow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Capitalist leech," screamed the duck.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I demand equal rights," yelled the goose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the pig just grunted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And they painted "unfair" picket signs and marched round and around
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> little red hen shouting obscenities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the government agent came, he said to the little red hen, "You
>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>> not be greedy."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "But I earned the bread," said the little red hen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Exactly," said the agent. "That's the wonderful free enterprise
>>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>> Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our
>>>>>>> modern
>>>>>>> government regulations productive workers must divide their products
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the idle."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And they lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who
>>>>>>> smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, I am grateful." But her neighbors
>>>>>>> wondered why she never again baked any more bread.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From Ronald Reagan...  Reagan In His Own Voice (Audio book/download) ^
>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>> November 1976 | Ronald Reagan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While this story is called 'Red Hen', there is an analogus story about
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> baker and loaves of bread.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This story explains the 'Ukrainian Holodomor'.  Luckly my Grandparents
>>>>>>> were here not there.  Thru relatives and friends, I got the story and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> reason it occurred.  The reason can be explained by 'Marxism' and
>>>>>>> 'Government Control'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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