[Rhodes22-list] Comment to Philidelphia Lawyer about medical costs

[Herb Parsons]

You blew the punch line Brad:

"... and they BOTH became wealthy"


Brad Haslett wrote:
> Ok, since Ben started this-
>
> You heard about the lawyer who set-up an office as the only attorney
> in a small town and almost starved to death?
>
> Then another attorney moved to town and he became wealthy!
>
> Brad
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>   
>> See, I TOLE you that the good ones come from lawyers.
>>
>> My two favorites:
>>
>> What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?
>> One's a slimy bottom-dwelling scum-sucker.
>> The other is a fish.
>>
>> What do you call 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the lake?
>> A good start.
>>
>>
>> Benjamin Cittadino wrote:
>>     
>>> So why does New Jersey have so many toxic waste sites and California so many
>>> lawyers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> New Jersey got first choice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Believe me, I've heard 'em all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ben C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hparsons wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> But but but Brad, Lawyer jokes are FUN. Most of the good ones that I
>>>> know came from lawyers! The guys my wife used to work for had a
>>>> collection of them on the table in their lobby.
>>>>
>>>> On tort reform - Here's my "Herb amendments" to your suggestions.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Reverse damages are always allowed, not just in < 100k
>>>>   1a) The above are payable by the attorney if he took the case on
>>>> consignment, to the same percentage at which he took the case. That
>>>> would end the "let's roll the dice and see what happens" contingency cases
>>>>   1b) All of the above applies to class action suits as well.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Do away with the "deep pockets" rules. If your company has
>>>> 10,000,000,000 in assets, and the party that was 90% at fault is
>>>> "judgement proof", because he owes more than he's worth, you should
>>>> STILL only be expected to pay only 10% of the judgment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>
>>>>> I look forward to the debate with Ben on this issue after the
>>>>> election.  Actually, the same 'cure' for health-care will work for
>>>>> unnecessary lawsuits.  Getting sick and getting hurt "happens".  The
>>>>> solution to health care is to tame the extreme ends of the bell curve.
>>>>>  Here's my idea for runaway legal suits.  First, if what you have to
>>>>> sue over isn't worth at least $100,000, then you have to pay for the
>>>>> other parties defense if you lose plus their time and aggravation.
>>>>> That would eliminate crap like what we just went through with our dump
>>>>> truck loss last year.  Second, if you're worth more than 2 million,
>>>>> the folks left behind will be just fine - set a limit on what a
>>>>> person's injuries or "worth" is, no matter how crass or cold that may
>>>>> sound.
>>>>>
>>>>> Odd as it may seem, I'll sit out the lawyer jokes and the "Ben
>>>>> bashing". He's like a lot of my lawyer friends - good guys, " just
>>>>> can't see the forest for the trees".
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Didn't you just tell us a few posts back that "Punitive damages are a
>>>>>> non-issue. They are almost never awarded, and when they are a Judge
>>>>>> usually minimizes them (by remitting the jury's verdict)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If that's the case, then limiting something that is almost never
>>>>>> awarded, and usually minimized when they are, would hardly seem to be a
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can we start telling lawyer jokes now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Tootle;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll debate tort reform with you after the election if you really want
>>>>>>> to,
>>>>>>> but for now be satisfied with the following article which tells the
>>>>>>> "other
>>>>>>> side" of the story.  Anyone who reads your "position paper" may want a
>>>>>>> quick
>>>>>>> answer. I don't agree with everything in this article but it's close
>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>> to give people the idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who Wants To Become a Medical Malpractice Millionaire?
>>>>>>> The Phony Tort Reform Crisis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> by Ted Rall
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a recent episode of "Fear Factor," two flat-tummied babes in hot
>>>>>>> pants
>>>>>>> and jogging bras agreed to be locked into a glass coffin with 500
>>>>>>> panicky
>>>>>>> tarantulas--"we're adding crickets to keep the tarantulas active," the
>>>>>>> show's host explained helpfully--as their boyfriends sawed a metal bar
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> free them. At stake in this ordeal was the chance to proceed to the
>>>>>>> next of
>>>>>>> eight elimination rounds, the survivors of which were promised one
>>>>>>> million
>>>>>>> dollars. It's amazing what people will do for money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, there are limits. How much money would you require in order to
>>>>>>> consent to having your leg chopped off? A finger? Would you agree to be
>>>>>>> blinded for $1 million? $10 million? Would you let yourself be killed?
>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>> all, you're going to die anyway. Wouldn't passing away painlessly,
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> anesthesia, be worth the price if you believed that your family would
>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>> wealthy as a result?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're rational, you think these are crazy questions. Good health, a
>>>>>>> sound body, life itself are all priceless. No amount of money can
>>>>>>> compensate
>>>>>>> you for unnecessarily losing a function or body part. And that's what
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Bush Administration and its medical industry allies think too. Under
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> proposed "tort reform" legislation, you'll receive virtually nothing if
>>>>>>> you're butchered by a careless doctor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A jury can award two classes of damages to a victim of medical
>>>>>>> malpractice:
>>>>>>> economic and punitive. Economic damages compensate a patient for future
>>>>>>> wages lost as a result of a doctor's mistake; punitive awards account
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> other victims who may not have sued, They also send a warning to other
>>>>>>> doctors not to behave negligently. Bush wants to slap a limit on
>>>>>>> economic
>>>>>>> damages, but with the average household earning about $40,000 a year,
>>>>>>> lost
>>>>>>> wages tend to be relatively low. The current proposal focuses on the
>>>>>>> punitive component because it comprises the biggest part of large
>>>>>>> damage
>>>>>>> awards. Bush wants to limit punitive damages to $250,000.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "This liability system, I'm telling you, is out of control," Bush says.
>>>>>>> "Because the system is so unpredictable, there is a constant risk of
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> hit by a massive jury award. It's costly for the doctors, it's costly
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> small businesses, it's costly for hospitals, it is really costly for
>>>>>>> patients."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First it's Iraq. Then Social Security. Now more lies to create a phony
>>>>>>> torts
>>>>>>> crisis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office finds that the costs
>>>>>>> associated
>>>>>>> with malpractice--buying insurance and paying out damage
>>>>>>> awards--amounts to
>>>>>>> less than two percent of America's skyrocketing healthcare expenses.
>>>>>>> "Even a
>>>>>>> reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower
>>>>>>> healthcare costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the
>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>> effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small," the CBO
>>>>>>> determined. That's chump change--a mere five bucks out of the $900 I
>>>>>>> blow on
>>>>>>> health insurance each month.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, there's an easy way for a doctor to avoid malpractice suits:
>>>>>>> do a
>>>>>>> good job. Do no harm and you probably won't get sued. And the courts
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> good at throwing out frivolous lawsuits before they become expensive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contrary to corporate belief, patients don't undergo surgery in hope of
>>>>>>> striking it rich as the result of some medical mishap. And victims
>>>>>>> rarely
>>>>>>> sue. Those who do are desperate for justice and money to cover the
>>>>>>> additional medical care necessitated by their doctor's incompetence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consider, for example, the case of Yvonne Kimura, a 49-year-old
>>>>>>> pharmacist
>>>>>>> from Fresno. Surgeons at the University of California, San Francisco
>>>>>>> Medical
>>>>>>> Center operated on her to remove a benign tumor in her leg. At one
>>>>>>> point in
>>>>>>> the operation they decided to cut a nerve without bothering to call in
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> specialist to determine whether it was a motor or sensory nerve. Big
>>>>>>> mistake. She can no longer move or feel her foot. She'll wear a brace
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> rest of her life. A San Francisco jury awarded her $3.3 million in
>>>>>>> punitive
>>>>>>> plus $286,000 in future wage loss and medical expenses. Would you trade
>>>>>>> places with Ms. Kimura, even for $3.6 million?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like 26 other states, however, California already caps punitive damages
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> $250,000. Mr. Kimura collected just $536,000, minus legal fees that may
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> run as high as one third. To Republicans who believe she got what she
>>>>>>> deserves: get in touch. I'll gladly smash one of your legs with a
>>>>>>> sledgehammer for half a million bucks, but I get the TV rights.
>>>>>>> Operators
>>>>>>> are standing by.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's look at another example of "out of control" malpractice
>>>>>>> litigation. A
>>>>>>> Durham, North Carolina woman who suffered a "horror show of medical
>>>>>>> complications after her wisdom teeth were pulled" set the 2002 state
>>>>>>> record
>>>>>>> for a jury award: $5 million. Her oral surgeon's slowness and
>>>>>>> clumsiness
>>>>>>> caused her "nerve damage, a bad jaw joint and excruciating pain." She
>>>>>>> required pain medicine so powerful that it caused her an impacted bowel
>>>>>>> ailment, requiring the removal of two-thirds of her colon, a large part
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> her small intestine and her reproductive organs. $5 million can't
>>>>>>> compensate
>>>>>>> for the fact that she will never bear children. $500 million wouldn't
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> close, but George W. Bush thinks $250,000 is more than sufficient.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or how about this one: On November 9, 1992, Maryland resident Valerie
>>>>>>> Shea
>>>>>>> was (correctly) given an emergency Caesarean section at Anne Arundel
>>>>>>> Medical
>>>>>>> Center. But after her son Patrick was delivered, he was still suffering
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> fetal tachycardia, a condition which made his heart race at over 200
>>>>>>> beats
>>>>>>> per minute and turned his skin blue. He was suffocating. Her
>>>>>>> pediatrician
>>>>>>> placed an oxygen mask on Patrick and put ice on his cheeks to revive
>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>> but mistakenly waited 56 minutes before sticking a breathing tube down
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> throat. Finally, 80 minutes after the birth, the doctor took a nurse's
>>>>>>> suggestion and administered the heart medication adenosine. Patrick
>>>>>>> lived.
>>>>>>> But he suffered severe brain injuries during that crucial hour and 20
>>>>>>> minutes. With an IQ of 49, he is in special education and requires
>>>>>>> 24-hour
>>>>>>> care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When he was nine years old, Patrick's parents sued the pediatrician and
>>>>>>> hospital after a nurse who had witnessed the birth finally stepped
>>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>> and told them what had happened. A jury handed them $1.4 million for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> child's future medical expenses, $3.5 million for his lost earning
>>>>>>> capacity
>>>>>>> and $1.5 million for pain and suffering.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Every day, we worried, what will happen to him when we're gone,"
>>>>>>> Patrick's
>>>>>>> mom said after the verdict. "Now we don't have to worry." Seems like a
>>>>>>> fair
>>>>>>> use of the insurance company's $6.4 million, not to mention my five
>>>>>>> bucks."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   BEN C.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tootle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> "Health insurance costs as well as physician's malpractice premiums
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> NOTHING to do with lawsuits, and everything to do with insurance
>>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>>> mismanagement, poor investments, and the increase in healthcare needs
>>>>>>>> caused by malpractice."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is the biggest lie since Lenin and crock of shit believed in.  It
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> everything to do with costs of medical care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I spent 15 years working in a hospital.  I functioned as physicians
>>>>>>>> extra
>>>>>>>> hands. It was a charity hospital and as such was shielded by South
>>>>>>>> Carolina to maximum tort awards for negligence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Medicine is an 'Art'.  A Physician uses his education and experience
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make medical judgments.  Occasionally there are screw ups.  Some of
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> screw ups result in severe injury and death.  Because of the total
>>>>>>>> numbers
>>>>>>>> of hospital procedures involved, these screw ups happen daily.  The
>>>>>>>> reasons are many.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The biggest reason is so called 'human error'.  And this is where law
>>>>>>>> suits arise.  And tort lawyers jump on these instances like hyenas on
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> dead zebra.  The costs of defending Hospitals, Medical Clinics,
>>>>>>>> Doctors
>>>>>>>> and other medical personal are outrageous.  These costs are thru
>>>>>>>> putted to
>>>>>>>> the patients, all the patients.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I have time, or somewhere way back in the archives, I have
>>>>>>>> answered
>>>>>>>> the question as to why 'mistakes' occur.  For this post I will say the
>>>>>>>> biggest reason why mistakes occur is the physical impossibility of
>>>>>>>> providing 100% infallible medical care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The impossibility occurs because economic limitations. Economic
>>>>>>>> resources,
>>>>>>>> sometimes called 'wealth' are not unlimited. Because wealth is finite
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> the reason why 'Marxism' fails.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wealth is created by man working.  It is the value of his efforts.  It
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> not created my mandate of the Government.  If a person gets to keep
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> results of his efforts, he works more, harder.  If he gets his efforts
>>>>>>>> confiscated then why work?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a famous story that Ronald Reagan oft told.  It is important
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> intellectuals that seek to 'spread the wealth' need to comprehend yet
>>>>>>>> fail
>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Read and attempt to understand:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Red Hen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A modern day little red hen may not sound like or appear to be a
>>>>>>>> quotable
>>>>>>>> authority on economics but then some authorities aren't worth quoting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About a year ago I imposed a little poetry on you. It was called "The
>>>>>>>> Incredible Bread Machine" and made a lot of sense with reference to
>>>>>>>> matters economic. You didn't object too much so having gotten away
>>>>>>>> with it
>>>>>>>> once I'm going to try again. This is a little treatise on basic
>>>>>>>> economics
>>>>>>>> called "The Modern little Red Hen."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once upon a time there was a little red hen who scratched about the
>>>>>>>> barnyard until she uncovered some grains of wheat. She called her
>>>>>>>> neighbors and said 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to
>>>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>>>> Who will help me plant it?'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Not I, " said the cow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Not I," said the pig.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Not I," said the goose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen. And she did. The wheat grew
>>>>>>>> tall
>>>>>>>> and ripened into golden grain. "Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> little red hen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Not I," said the duck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Out of my classification," said the pig.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen, and she did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At last the time came to bake the bread. "Who will help me bake
>>>>>>>> bread?"
>>>>>>>> asked the little red hen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Then I will," said the little red hen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She baked five loaves and held them up for the neighbors to see.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They all wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little
>>>>>>>> red
>>>>>>>> hen said, "No, I can eat the five loaves myself."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Excess profits," cried the cow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Capitalist leech," screamed the duck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I demand equal rights," yelled the goose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the pig just grunted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And they painted "unfair" picket signs and marched round and around
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> little red hen shouting obscenities.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the government agent came, he said to the little red hen, "You
>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>> not be greedy."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "But I earned the bread," said the little red hen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Exactly," said the agent. "That's the wonderful free enterprise
>>>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>>> Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our
>>>>>>>> modern
>>>>>>>> government regulations productive workers must divide their products
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the idle."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And they lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who
>>>>>>>> smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, I am grateful." But her neighbors
>>>>>>>> wondered why she never again baked any more bread.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From Ronald Reagan...  Reagan In His Own Voice (Audio book/download) ^
>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>> November 1976 | Ronald Reagan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While this story is called 'Red Hen', there is an analogus story about
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> baker and loaves of bread.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This story explains the 'Ukrainian Holodomor'.  Luckly my Grandparents
>>>>>>>> were here not there.  Thru relatives and friends, I got the story and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> reason it occurred.  The reason can be explained by 'Marxism' and
>>>>>>>> 'Government Control'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
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>>>       
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