[Rhodes22-list] ok michael has had enough, was Like Deena, did you say Price?

[michael meltzer]

Art it is time to simply stop. Stop Now.

I never have had to get on someone's case about using this list for commercial uses, until his time. 

* you notice that stan does NOT soloatied on this list. And show good taste about it when he does post
* you notice that there is no spam on the list, the filter kill about 40 commercial posts a day, a good chuck from "other boat Things"
* Ric has been moving Graphics for years but you never know it unless you ask him.
* people sell boat have been doing for years, but it "one post".
* when Bill and Pamela opened their canvas shop they never soloatied on the list. 

All the above examples have shown good taste about it, Art you are way over the line. Stop any posts about your commercial venture. Please answer any normal list traffic(including specialized questions about canvas) but unless it a direct question "Art can you make this for me", I real do not what to hear about boat canvas work you are doing or looking like you are "back handing" the question that you can generate work. (that includes privately taking people email address and pumping them, they MUST approach you first)

Sorry to be so direct, but you simply do not get the scuttle message. Open a loft at your local marine, pay for show space, place fliers all over the place, make a "YouTube" with a vial message, think outside the box all you what. But unless you want to start paying me and John (10-20% of the gross for marketing sounds right. You have no god given right to market here. If you done right by people let them recommend you. But not you pushing it!!!!!!!!

On a slightly different subject, Like Others have noted, Stan has declined your help and I cannot think other than you like insulting him by your actions or I go back you my original premious that "you simple do not get it and this is a charter flaw" (which is supported by people who meet you), Sorry that you have this problem. If it make you feel any better spelling has been my lifelong problem. 


-mjm

-PS I do not need any reply or any "justification" just simple stop it and control your actions, You have been good with boating advice and helpful but by the same token you also know how I will play it if pushed any farther.   
  

     

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Arthur H. Czerwonky
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 3:04 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Like Deena, did you say Price?

Deena,

Please help me understand.  Who has lowered what price on what?  

If you refer to some lower price I can sell for, I have to establish costing on what is possible.  I never established the Boomroom at $1,500 based, for example, on Stan's previous price of ~$2,000.  My gosh, that was my mission from our skippers, they were screaming about the cost, and I responded with better solutions over a three month period in the Winter of '06.  Dave Bradley can relate the endless emails we exchanged to get it just like the fleet wanted it!  Back then I actually charged Dave 1,100, not the current price, and additionally travelled to Conn to help install it, mileage costs only.  Not a shabby commitment, not at all.  I recall that even Stan was happy then.  I will always meet or exceed your expectations, to quote Steven Covey.  

I think it unfair to our skippers if I were to set any product cost based on $100 or $200 or $500 below some competitor offering.  I just will not do it!  It is mandatory that my quality be the best available, and that will be the only and certain result, not just some fuzzy target.  Among my fleetmates there is no doubt that I have committed to quality canvas products.

Now, back to the bimini project.  Call me on the phone at any point, 404 295-7777.

Have a nice week.  BTW, did your husband ever cross paths with "the Brute" when he was on active duty?

R,

Art





-----Original Message-----
>From: captainpy at comcast.net
>Sent: Aug 1, 2009 7:19 AM
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Promos
>
>
>
>Art, 
>
>I like the idea of the pens the best.  They wouldn't be as expensive to obtain, and are to maintain a supply and restock as needed.  At the same time it wouldn't give the appearance of a diminished product.  Having been a retail store manager years ago I am a firm believer in not reducing the price of a high quality product.  People tended then not to purchase it and would many times wait until they thought it might go on sale.  They also felt if you lowered the price maybe it wasn't so great after all.  I just got my assessment from our association.  They sent everyone a letter informing us they were raising our yearly fee  5% due to the economy.  We also got a price hike with our utilities.  My husband did not get a 5% raise to keep up with the pace.  Alot of people just are cutting back.  My Rhodes is kept at the quantico marina.  We don't see very many people going out on their motor boats this year.  
>
>
>
>Deena 
>
>
>
>  
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:41:46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1933, Issue 4 
>
>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions to 
>        rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit 
>        http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list 
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 
>        rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at 
>        rhodes22-list-owner at rhodes22.org 
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific 
>than "Re: Contents of Rhodes22-list digest..." 
>
>
>Today's Topics: 
>
>   1. Re: Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway (Leland) 
>   2. Re: Rhodes Promotions (R22RumRunner at aol.com) 
>   3. Re: Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway (Hank) 
>   4. Re: Rhodes Crew Gear (BenCittadino) 
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
>Message: 1 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT) 
>From: Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org> 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway 
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Message-ID: <24764138.post at talk.nabble.com> 
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 
>
>
>
>David, 
>
>Everything I've read indicates that you are right.  Many of the times that 
>I've measured the effects of the centerboard I've noticed more than a ten 
>degree improvement into the wind.  However, every time I put the board down 
>I slow down.  Every time I raise the board I speed up. 
>
>Hopefully this picture will come through: 
>
>
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p24764138/Sail%2BSpeed.ppt Sail+Speed.ppt 
>
>Let's assume you're sailing from point A to B with the board up.  Doesn't 
>matter how much you drift because you're still going from point A to B.  If 
>you put the board down you can sail more into the wind and you are able to 
>sail from point A to C.  To get to point B you would then need to sail from 
>point C to A.  Even if you weren't sailing slower with the board down, 
>wouldn't it take you longer to go from point A to C to B than sailing 
>directly from point A to B? 
>
>Am I missing something? 
>
>Unless I want to go more into the wind, it still seems like the best reason 
>to put the board down is to knock the barnacles off. 
>
>Lee 
>
>
>Yesterday I got the chance to sail in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat 
>water.  I set the boat up on a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).  The 
>course was was 060 M by my steering compass.  We were able to do about 
>.5  - 4 kts SOG by the GPS. 
>
>With the board down our  COG (Course over ground) was 055-057 M 
>With the board up out COG  was 045-048 M 
>
>Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has unknown 
>deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has no importance 
>here.  Lowering the board reduced leeway by about 10 degrees.  Lowering the 
>board had no observed effect on SOG although wind variation could have 
>hidden a small effect.  Based on these results I see no reason to sail with 
>the board up unless in very thin water and one very good reason to sail with 
>it down. 
>
>David Walker 
>-- 
>View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24764138.html 
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>
>
>
>------------------------------ 
>
>Message: 2 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:03:21 EDT 
>From: R22RumRunner at aol.com 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes Promotions 
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Message-ID: <c60.4aa50792.37a4e049 at aol.com> 
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" 
>
>Michael, 
>  
>  
>Yes, they still have the logo. I have the information on a different   
>computer. I will send it to you later. 
>  
>Rummy 
>  
>  
>In a message dated 7/30/2009 9:22:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,   
>mjm at michaelmeltzer.com writes: 
>
>Is the  rhodes22 logo still on file with lands end? Rummy you remember or 
>one  else? 
>
>-mjm 
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org 
>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]  On Behalf Of Arthur H. Czerwonky 
>Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:23  PM 
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>
>Deena, 
>
>Do you think an inscribed ball point, one  worth keeping and using, would 
>make sense?  We just need to 'blue sky'  this show... 
>
>I stitched a miniature sail bag once, it was made of  actual sailcloth and 
>was embroidered.  Really quality you wouldn't pitch  in file 13.  Maybe an 
>embossed key chain with a small fiberglass piece  (of hull) as a hanger.   
>There must be soms scrap around the GB  facility.  " You have a small part of 
>the boat, we can deliver the rest  in a few months."  Let's stretch our 
>imagination over Stan  (SOS)! 
>
>Art 
>
>-----Original Message----- 
>>From:  captainpy at comcast.net 
>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM 
>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>Stan!!!!!!!!     
>> 
>>How about a Rhodes 22 T-shirt That says "Ask me about my  Rhodes"  )On one 
>side a picture and on the other GB's web address?   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>Deena AKA Captain Py   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   
>>----- Original Message -----   
>>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:00:39 PM  GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
>>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931,  Issue 1 
>> 
>>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions to   
>>        rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org   
>> 
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit   
>>         http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list 
>>or, via email,  send a message with subject or body 'help' to 
>>       rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>> 
>>You can reach the  person managing the list at 
>>         rhodes22-list-owner at rhodes22.org 
>> 
>>When replying, please edit  your Subject line so it is more specific 
>>than "Re: Contents of  Rhodes22-list digest..." 
>> 
>> 
>>Today's Topics:   
>> 
>>   1. Re: Stuff that works - pest control solutions  (Jim Connolly) 
>>   2. Re: Fw:  general boat's dilema  (Arthur H. Czerwonky) 
>>   3. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>   4. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>   5. Re: general boat's complaint /in  all fairness (Lou Rosenberg) 
>>   6. Re: general boat's  complaint /in all fairness 
>>      (Arthur H. Czerwonky)   
>>   7. Re: general boat's complaint /in all fairness (Lowe,  Rob) 
>>   8. Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing (Arthur H.  Czerwonky)   
>> 
>> 
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 1 
>>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:01:17 -0400   
>>From: "Jim Connolly" <jbconnolly at comcast.net> 
>>Subject:  Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions 
>>To:  "'The Rhodes 22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>Message-ID: <200907290201.n6T21ZTY022293 at raeid23.raenet.com>   
>>Content-Type: text/plain;         charset="us-ascii" 
>> 
>>I had hornets and wasps in the coaming  right before launch, so I needed a 
>>fast solution.     
>> 
>>I found a non-toxic wasp killer spray that is based on mint  oil ("poison 
>>free" from Victor Pest Control).  It took a whole  can, but seemed to 
>work. 
>>The smell repelled or confused returning  wasps, and those that were home 
>>when I sprayed (at least some of them)  died. 
>> 
>>Jim Connolly 
>>s/v Inisheer 
>>   
>> 
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org   
>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Lock   
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:29 PM 
>>To: Rhodes 22   
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions   
>> 
>>Last year I had a couple of pest problems that many people  responded too 
>>with helpful suggestions.  Here's what my results  were - 
>> 
>>1) Problem - spider webs in the rigging (especially  masthead fly) 
>Solution - 
>>WD40.  I had the mast down early this  spring to fix several things.   
>Before 
>>raising again, I sprayed  WD40 liberally on the masthead, Windex, VHF 
>>antenna, and diamond  stays.  So far (5 months 
>>later) not a single web!  Still get  them down lower where I didn't spray, 
>so 
>>we know the spiders are still  there.  But they don't want to (or can't) 
>>start webs on the WD40  treated portion. 
>> 
>>2) Problem - paper wasps building nests under  the cockpit coaming 
>Solution - 
>>clothes drier sheets.  Middle of  last summer I stapled a bunch of drier 
>>sheets into the wood backing up  under the coaming on both sides.  No wasp 
>>nests have appeared in  almost a year now.  I see some more wasp activity 
>>now, so I  suspect it's time to renew the sheets.  But that's a cheap and   
>>effective control. 
>> 
>>Now if only I could figure out what  to do about the ants coming aboard 
>from 
>>shore....   
>> 
>>Cheers! 
>>John Lock 
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>>s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22 
>>Lake Sinclair, GA   
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>> 
>>__________________________________________________ 
>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>__________________________________________________   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 2 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:31:43 -0400 (EDT)   
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>   
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fw:  general boat's dilema   
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>Message-ID: 
>>         
><16092871.1248874303875.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>   
>>         
>>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=UTF-8 
>> 
>>John, 
>> 
>>Welcome aboard the list  and your involvement.  This fleet is strong for 
>the mix of its skippers  as well an exceptional boat.  If you can come to the 
>show you'll have a  rather rare opportunity to meet many of them as we have 
>a get-together in a  nearby restaurant, I can't remember what day that will 
>be this year - maybe we  should take a poll.  C'mon down and enjoy!  You 
>will also see one of  the most exceptional sailboat displays in the country.   
>Lee may have a  handle on what is cooking locally, or Mary Lou and Fred may 
>know.  We  have alot of skippers in the North Chesapeake environs, let's 
>show the  flag.  BTW, is there an R22 burgee? 
>> 
>>Another option we  could use in helping GB is to followup on inquiries on 
>the Rhodes from shows,  calls, or curious prospects we may meet as our 
>marinas.  If local owners  are informed about such prospects from Stan or other 
>owners, they could be  invited out on a sail or into a conversation about our 
>boat, maybe about their  boat and/or sailing interests.  We get random 
>requests from wannabes,  maybe a more proactive initiative on our part, done 
>tastefully, would develop  into prospects for Stan.  He can suggest names, 
>approach, interests  selectively to get the ball/tide rolling.  A passive 
>approach will not  enhance sales prospects for GB. 
>> 
>>I share your past interest in  the Mariner (#1607) and the O'Day boats 
>(222).  I haven't seen much  racing interest in our skippers, but welcome 
>correction if it is due.   Involvement in the racing is alot of fun.  Stan 
>suggested a strictly  racing R22 a few years ago, maybe to be revived.  Are you 
>IMF (probably)  or Conventional?  What size Genny?  Have you raced out of 
>Brant  Beach, or is it mostly a cruising venue?  Which motor have you preferred? 
>  
>> 
>>We welcome your involvement, John, and look forward to your  reply. 
>> 
>>Art 
>>s/v Mary Jane 
>>Hartwell and St Pete   
>> 
>> 
>>--Original Message----- 
>>>From: John  <johnrowland at optonline.net> 
>>>Sent: Jul 28, 2009 9:50 PM   
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Fw:  general boat's dilema   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>----- Original Message -----   
>>>From: "John" <johnrowland at optonline.net> 
>>>To:  <rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org> 
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28,  2009 9:01 PM 
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>I have submitted one or two messages  to the list, but would like to get 
>>>>more involved.  I  purchased a 1989 Rhodes22 about 1 year ago.  I have 
>raced   
>>>>Mariners years ago, owned a few O'Days, and never found a boat  that I 
>enjoy 
>>>>more than this one.  Heaven forbid General  Boats has problems.  There 
>is no 
>>>>owner loyalty, or  construction quality (or--even more 
>important--customer   
>>>>service) that compares with this company.  While I  probably cannot 
>attend 
>>>>the Annapolis Show, I need to know what  I (and other loyal owners) can 
>do 
>>>>to keep this company strong.   
>>>> 
>>>> I have been amazed at the discussions on  this list (with the exception 
>of 
>>>> the political issues  regarding the last election).  My goodness, where 
>>>> else  can I learn about how to sail more effectively and fix whatever   
>>>> problems I have on the boat.  I do not call a customer  service number 
>that 
>>>> keeps me on hold for hours--I talk to the  owner of the company!! 
>>>> 
>>>> I will not get  involved in discussions regarding royalties, but do 
>think 
>>>>  that each of us owes Stan some support in keeping this boat alive.   
>>>> 
>>>> I am actually in a slip next to a Hunter 40,  and I am happier with 
>this 
>>>> boat. 
>>>>   
>>>> I read a lot of e-mails from individuals who offer  suggestions about 
>other 
>>>> members issues and questions.   What better support canone get than 
>this? 
>>>> 
>>>> I  keep the boat at a slip at the Brant Beach Yacht Club in Brant 
>Beach,   
>>>> New Jersey and look forward to meeting other owners in the  area. 
>>>> 
>>>> John 
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Rick"  <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> 
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email  List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July  28, 2009 7:24 PM 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's  dilema 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> $1.97   
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM,  Arthur H. Czerwonky < 
>>>>> czerwonky at earthlink.net>  wrote: 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rick,   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Good idea, buddy!   Somehow to add a unique personal touch.  I would 
>add,   
>>>>>> however, that Mary Lou really does not need to dance  on table tops 
>at 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>  Annapolis show.  Fred,  Pleassse! 
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> I agree with the blazers, but, as we are in  shoestring mode, what 
>about 
>>>>>> a   
>>>>>> Hanes T-shirt,  and of course, hospitality hot  dogs with lots of 
>mustard 
>>>>>> and   
>>>>>> relish.  Seriously, I embroidered some nice  looking T-shirts for the 
>'07 
>>>>>> show, different color  each day, some were 'Name, and rhodes22.com', 
>and 
>>>>>>  some were 'name, boomroom, rhodes22.com', each comma'd section above 
>the   
>>>>>> other.  They were noticed by our visitors, never  a comment or 
>compliment 
>>>>>> otherwise.  You might  have to get used to it... rhoadies are tough. 
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> Let's gel some more ideas for Stan to use.  At  least it engages the 
>>>>>> imagination of the smart cookies  in our magnificent Rhodes fleet. 
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> No commissions or royalty this time either,  guys.  What do you 
>charge, 
>>>>>> Rick?   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Art 
>>>>>>  s/v Mary Jane 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>>>  >From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> 
>>>>>>  >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 2:00 PM 
>>>>>> >To: The Rhodes 22  Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>>>>  >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema   
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> >Art,   
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> >Using owners at  shows sounds like a good idea.  Carver has success 
>with   
>>>>>> that 
>>>>>> >at the Cleveland  show, dressing everyone up the same way in blue 
>>>>>>  >blazers. 
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> >I  doubt any mass media advertising would have payback.  Since all 
>the   
>>>>>> major 
>>>>>> >sailing magazines  have been pushing for so long the Catalina wave 
>that 
>>>>>>  >you 
>>>>>> >start at 22 feet and buy up from there, a  GBI ad would be swamped. 
>>>>>> >Maybe   
>>>>>> >direct mail to long-time owners on state and  Coast Guard sailboat 
>>>>>> >registration lists, pushing  the R22 as a quality downsize option? 
>>>>>> >   
>>>>>> >Rick 
>>>>>> >   
>>>>>> >On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Arthur H.  Czerwonky < 
>>>>>> >czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:   
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> >> John, Rob,   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >> You may  recall that Stan proposed a stripped down version, call 
>it a   
>>>>>> racing 
>>>>>> >> model, on  the list a few years ago, and although I expressed 
>interest   
>>>>>> >> in 
>>>>>> >> this  new boat option to him, maybe others too, no further 
>information   
>>>>>> was 
>>>>>> >> provided to my  knowledge.  Back at that time Stan expressed his 
>>>>>>  >> ability 
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>> >>  produce, and now maybe he will further reconsider and tell us 
>more   
>>>>>> >> about 
>>>>>> >> what  he had in mind.  I still am interested, speaking for myself 
>as a   
>>>>>> >> potential buyer.  I will watch for any  response.  Did anyone get 
>>>>>> detailed   
>>>>>> >> information on this boat?   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >> I have  suggested the value of baseline ad exposure.  If nothing 
>else,   
>>>>>> >> targeted reinforcement to the boat show  displays that are so 
>>>>>> >> important.   
>>>>>> >>  Maybe followup visits by experienced  skippers.  I have been told 
>by 
>>>>>> >> one   
>>>>>> of 
>>>>>> >> our newer  skippers that my 'hot dog hospitality' aboard Mary Jane 
>at   
>>>>>> >> the 
>>>>>> '07   
>>>>>> >> show tipped the sale toward his boat  purchase with him and his 
>wife. 
>>>>>>  BTW,   
>>>>>> >> no commission provided or requested.   The presence of skippers at 
>the 
>>>>>> show   
>>>>>> >> is valuable - a third party evaluation of  their own boat, and 
>with 
>>>>>> >> 'no   
>>>>>> axe 
>>>>>> >> to  grind'.  Consider it for yourself in support of Stan, as I did 
>  
>>>>>> >> twice. 
>>>>>>  >>  You would have one very positive impression of how GB and a   
>huge 
>>>>>> >> number 
>>>>>> of   
>>>>>> >> other boat makers reach their  customers.  Our skippers who are so 
>>>>>> willing to   
>>>>>> >> give demos, whether at shows or not, are  such valuable 
>ambassadors 
>>>>>> >> for   
>>>>>> GB. 
>>>>>> >>  Having  done it a number of times, it is really fun as well as 
>being   
>>>>>> >> productive.  Try it, you'll like  it!  Let's be specific - Can 
>some of 
>>>>>> you   
>>>>>> >> skipper demos at Annapoli!   
>>>>>> >>  s or St Pete or elsewhere?   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >> Cutting to  the chase, who has some real connections to options 
>and   
>>>>>> selling 
>>>>>> >>  /advertising connections that could help get Stan and GB out of 
>this   
>>>>>> 'black 
>>>>>> >> hole' that  the company appears to be in?  It could be just a few   
>>>>>> positive 
>>>>>> >> levers to  pull that would enable better results, even in our 
>current   
>>>>>> puuuny 
>>>>>> >>  economy.  Who is willing to pen letters of endorsement to   
>>>>>> prospects/suspects 
>>>>>> >>  that could tip the scales, one by one.   Time to get the horses 
>out   
>>>>>> >> of 
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >> barn, guys. 
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>> >> Like Mark Twain or someone else  once said, let's get the P in our 
>>>>>> >> Pot!   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >>  Respectfully, 
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>>  >> Art 
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>>  >> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>>> >>  >From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>>>>>  >> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM 
>>>>>> >>  >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>>>> >>  >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint 
>(continued)   
>>>>>> >> > 
>>>>>> >> >   
>>>>>> >> >Rob, 
>>>>>> >>  > 
>>>>>> >> >Yep that pretty much covers it. Now  what would the price point 
>be 
>>>>>> >> >for   
>>>>>> such 
>>>>>> >> a   
>>>>>> >> >boat? I have the origional literature  that came with my 71 and 
>you 
>>>>>> should   
>>>>>> >> >see that show package special price!!!   
>>>>>> >> > 
>>>>>> >>  >John S. 
>>>>>> >> > 
>>>>>>  >> > 
>>>>>> >> >Rob Lowe wrote:   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >> Drop the IMF, ditch the head, the water tank, the fancy motor   
>>>>>> >> >> lift, 
>>>>>> and   
>>>>>> >> >> re-model the interior?  Now  you have my 1976 boat! I do have 
>>>>>> >> >>  battery 
>>>>>> >> >> though. - rob   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >> 
>>>>>> >> >> -----Original Message-----   
>>>>>> >> >> From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org 
>>>>>> >> >>  [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John   
>>>>>> Shulick 
>>>>>> >> >>  Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM 
>>>>>> >>  >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>>>> >>  >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint 
>(continued)   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >> 
>>>>>> >> >> Rick,   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids 
>idea   
>>>>>> >> >> of 
>>>>>>  >> >> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch   
>the 
>>>>>> head, 
>>>>>> >> >>  the 
>>>>>> >> >> on board water tank, the  batteries, the fancy motor lift, 
>re-model 
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >> >> interior and selling it as a "sport  model" My wife and I live 
>on 
>>>>>> >> >> the   
>>>>>> >> >> boat 
>>>>>>  >> >> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights   
>>>>>> sufficient. 
>>>>>> >>  >> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a 
>first   
>>>>>> class 
>>>>>> >> >>  floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have 
>had   
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> >> >>  perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a 
>macgregor   
>>>>>> >> >> 26 
>>>>>>  >> >> using 
>>>>>> >> >> it like a  no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to 
>make   
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> >> >> mac   
>>>>>> >> >> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more  fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even 
>if 
>>>>>> you're   
>>>>>> >> >> not 
>>>>>>  >> >> racing its fun to be faster. 
>>>>>>  >> >> 
>>>>>> >> >> Respectfully  submitted, 
>>>>>> >> >> John Shulick   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >> 
>>>>>> >> >> Rick-139 wrote:   
>>>>>> >> >>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>> David, 
>>>>>> >> >>>   
>>>>>> >> >>> I hate to be the wet blanket  again.  But racing sailboats is 
>a 
>>>>>> >>  >>> whole 
>>>>>> >> >>> 'nother   
>>>>>> >> >>> market.  The key to  convincing a customer to buy a sailboat 
>for 
>>>>>> racing   
>>>>>> >> >> is 
>>>>>>  >> >>> to 
>>>>>> >> >>>  convince him or her that they will have lots of other 
>sailboats   
>>>>>> >> >>> to 
>>>>>>  >> >> race 
>>>>>> >> >>> against.   
>>>>>> >> >>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>> In the one design game, it involves high volume  production 
>and a 
>>>>>> >> >>> distribution  system that can execute geographically 
>concentrated 
>>>>>>  sales 
>>>>>> >> >> and 
>>>>>>  >> >>> support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the  Great 
>>>>>> >> >>> Lakes   
>>>>>> >> >> with 
>>>>>>  >> >>> the 
>>>>>> >> >>> J 22  and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable 
>  
>>>>>> history 
>>>>>> >> >> of   
>>>>>> >> >>> maintaining one design  integrity. 
>>>>>> >> >>>   
>>>>>> >> >>> Of course, there's always PHRF  racing.  But how many 20 - 25 
>foot 
>>>>>> >>  >> cruising 
>>>>>> >> >>> sailboat  owners are left with an interest in racing? 
>>>>>> >>  >>> 
>>>>>> >> >>> Unlike 30 years  ago, most people today who buy cruising or 
>day 
>>>>>>  sailing 
>>>>>> >> >>> boats   
>>>>>> >> >>> in the low 20's length are  first timers.  From there, they 
>either 
>>>>>> drop   
>>>>>> >> >> out 
>>>>>>  >> >>> or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising,   
>racing or 
>>>>>> >> >> both.   
>>>>>> >> >>> Catalina and Hunter have turned  the market into that by 
>making 
>>>>>> >> >>>  cheap 
>>>>>> >> >>> starter   
>>>>>> >> >>> boats people can easily abandon  for yachts.  Stan's main 
>problem 
>>>>>> >>  >>> is 
>>>>>> he 
>>>>>> >>  >> now 
>>>>>> >> >>> has a product that  goes against the prevailing mindset that 
>has 
>>>>>> >>  >> evolved 
>>>>>> >> >>> for   
>>>>>> >> >>> his market.   
>>>>>> >> >>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>> Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in   
>August 
>>>>>> issue 
>>>>>> >>  >> of 
>>>>>> >> >>> Sailing?  The  title itself is a reflection of that mindset.   
>And   
>>>>>> >> >> despite 
>>>>>>  >> >>> all 
>>>>>> >> >>> kinds  of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:   
>"More   
>>>>>> >> >> important, 
>>>>>>  >> >>> where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"   That's 
>some 
>>>>>> insult 
>>>>>> >>  >> to a 
>>>>>> >> >>> builder who has  admirably supported his product for decades.   
>But   
>>>>>> >> >> again, 
>>>>>>  >> >>> that's part of the same mindset.   
>>>>>> >> >>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>> Rick 
>>>>>> >> >>>   
>>>>>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04  PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> 
>>>>>> wrote:   
>>>>>> >> >>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Rick: 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go   
>down 
>>>>>> >> >>>> to   
>>>>>> >> >> the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that  I might 
>>>>>> >> >>>> need.   
>>>>>> >> >> Also, 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who 
>built   
>>>>>> >> >>>> the   
>>>>>> >> >> boat at 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> most places and expect a response.  That's  probably worth 
>>>>>> >> >>>> something   
>>>>>> >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> keep 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I   
>don't 
>>>>>> >> >>>> think   
>>>>>> >> >> you 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get  anything for 
>it. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> If   
>>>>>> >> >> the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> group 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm   
>just 
>>>>>> >> >> suggesting   
>>>>>> >> >>>> a 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone   
>participates 
>>>>>> >> >>>> might   
>>>>>> >> >> be a 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> better solution then a percentage up front facing  new 
>owners for 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into 
>the   
>>>>>> >> >> price 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> and 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a   
>>>>>> royalty/loyalty 
>>>>>> >>  >> up 
>>>>>> >> >>>> front for two  years.  Then, continued association membership 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> will 
>>>>>> >> >>  require 
>>>>>> >> >>>> the annual dues.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then  were 
>asked 
>>>>>> >> >>>> to   
>>>>>> >> >> send a 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> 5% 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a  Ford 
>or 
>>>>>> Chevy. 
>>>>>> >>  >> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>> figure some type  of ongoing support is probably reasonable 
>as 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> long 
>>>>>> as 
>>>>>>  >> >> we 
>>>>>> >> >>>> get   
>>>>>> >> >>>> good owner support and  parts availability.  For example, if 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> someone 
>>>>>> >> >> comes   
>>>>>> >> >>>> along and hits my rudder in  the slip and I need a new one, 
>there 
>>>>>> >>  >> ought to 
>>>>>> >> >>>> be   
>>>>>> >> >>>> a spare waiting at the  factory to ship out.   If someone 
>blows a 
>>>>>>  sail 
>>>>>> >> >>>> out,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> there should be one ready  to ship and the right color too.   
>I 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> don't 
>>>>>> >> >> know   
>>>>>> >> >>>> if 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean  overhead 
>and I 
>>>>>> don't 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> know 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts   
>for 
>>>>>> >> >> non-members   
>>>>>> >> >>>> ought to carry a premium  that members don't have to pay-so 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> another 
>>>>>> >> >> added   
>>>>>> >> >>>> incentive to be one of the  family. 
>>>>>> >> >>>>   
>>>>>> >> >>>> I hear what you are saying  about the market.  Long term, 
>owners 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> are 
>>>>>> >> >> not   
>>>>>> >> >>>> going to be the ones to  keep GBI afloat.  You have got to 
>get 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> new 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  customers 
>>>>>> >> >>>> through the  door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> given 
>>>>>> by   
>>>>>> >> >> a 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> lot 
>>>>>> >> >>>> of  experienced people on the list.  My experiences with 
>family   
>>>>>> >> >>>> run   
>>>>>> >> >>>> businesses are that we are  very happy to take your money but 
>you 
>>>>>> can   
>>>>>> >> >> keep 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems  open to some 
>>>>>> >> >> suggestions.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to  know 
>about it 
>>>>>> >> >>>> as   
>>>>>> >> >>>> someone   
>>>>>> >> >>>> has mentioned.  A new  boat is becoming cost prohibitive for 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> most, 
>>>>>> >> >> the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> recycling is a good second  market but I think you need a 
>"less 
>>>>>> >> >>  frills" 
>>>>>> >> >>>> model   
>>>>>> >> >>>> to get younger couples  through the doors.  You would have to 
>be 
>>>>>> able   
>>>>>> >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> build it with the same quality, using the same molds  at an 
>>>>>> attractive 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> price 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe 
>a   
>>>>>> >> >> stripped 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> down 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need  much 
>down 
>>>>>> >> >> below   
>>>>>> >> >>>> and   
>>>>>> >> >>>> will pay for quality  above.  The Rhodes is faster then a 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Catalina 
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> being 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Just my thoughts, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> David 
>>>>>> >> >>>>   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>>   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>>   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400   
>>>>>> >> >>>> From: Rick  <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint   
>>>>>> >> >>>> (continued)   
>>>>>> >> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email  List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Message-ID: 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com> 
>  
>>>>>> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1 
>>>>>> >> >>>>   
>>>>>> >> >>>> David,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said,  "I can 
>give 
>>>>>> >> >>>> you   
>>>>>> >> >> the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> home 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk   
>to 
>>>>>> >> >>>> you   
>>>>>> at 
>>>>>> >> >> any   
>>>>>> >> >>>> time."  Of course,  that tilted me to buy his boat and 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> subsequently 
>>>>>> >> >> buy   
>>>>>> >> >>>> many   
>>>>>> >> >>>> things from Stan.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive   
>offering in 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I  think 
>it 
>>>>>> >> >>>> will   
>>>>>> >> >> just 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> turn customers toward high volume boats where  technical 
>>>>>> >> >>>> information   
>>>>>> >> >> and 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> spare parts are readily available.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Rick 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>> On Sun,  Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp 
><dculp at hsbtx.com>   
>>>>>> wrote: 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Stan:   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Thank you for your  insight into the business.  I dare say 
>that 
>>>>>> most   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > sailboat   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > owners don't get the  inside track on happenings at the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > factory; 
>>>>>> if   
>>>>>> >> >> the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > factory is even still in business that is.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I want to comment on  the loyalty/royalty program 
>concerning 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > the 
>>>>>> >> >> Rhodes.   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  My   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > experience in boat  ownership over the years is that a used 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > boat 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  purchaser 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > always  spends the maximum funds set aside for the 
>purchase.   
>>>>>>  Either 
>>>>>> >>  >> the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > purchase  price and the taxes consume the entire amount or 
>the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > new 
>>>>>> >> >>  owner 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > takes any funds  left and applies them to things the boat 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > needs. 
>>>>>> >> >> And we   
>>>>>> >> >>>> all   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > know that used boats  need something all the time. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from 
>a   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > new   
>>>>>> >> >> owner 5 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> % 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > of 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the purchase  price be paid to GBI when they have probably 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > spent 
>>>>>> >> >> more   
>>>>>> >> >>>> money   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > then they intended to  begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the 
>top of 
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> scale   
>>>>>> >> >>>> in 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.   We see it all 
>the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > time   
>>>>>> on 
>>>>>> >> >> the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list...  Folks  are interested in the Rhodes but they are 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > trying 
>>>>>> to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> purchase   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it on a "Catalina"  budget; so they "lurk" on the list 
>either 
>>>>>> saving   
>>>>>> >> >> up 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > their 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale   
>whereby 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > they   
>>>>>> >> >>>> promptly   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > go   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > off-list and complete  the transaction. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > You will remember in  my case, that I sent GBI a check for 
>$ 
>>>>>> 200.00   
>>>>>> >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> cover 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not  5% 
>of 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the   
>>>>>> >> >> price 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical 
>support   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > that   
>>>>>> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  have 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > received as a  member of the list from the owners and from 
>>>>>> yourself.   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> That 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  is 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > worth something,  even though I didn't realize it in the 
>>>>>> beginning.   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> This 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world. 
>  
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I propose and this  will make some people on this list 
>unhappy, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > in 
>>>>>> >> >> fact,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > very   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > unhappy.... An Owner's  association with an annual fee.   
>For 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > that 
>>>>>> >> >> annual   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > you have got to  provide something however.  Which is 
>another 
>>>>>>  >> >> problem 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  with 
>>>>>> >> >>>> a   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > royalty fee upfront;  people always need to feel that they 
>are 
>>>>>> >>  >> getting 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  something for their money.   In this case, for the annual   
>>>>>> >> >> association   
>>>>>> >> >>>> fee:   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Admission to the list   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Technical support  either from members or the factory 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that   
>is 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > kept   
>>>>>> up 
>>>>>> >> >> to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> date   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > so I can purchase it  from you if I need something. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Except for the parts  and prices, this is pretty much what 
>we 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > are 
>>>>>> >> >> doing   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > already.  Maybe  you could come up with some member 
>specials on 
>>>>>>  >> >> pricing 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  from 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > time to time for  sails or parts or write an occasional 
>article 
>>>>>> that   
>>>>>> >> >>>> only   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > members would  get.  I don't want to burden you with a 
>bunch of 
>>>>>>  >> >> extra 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  work, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but there needs  to be something unique about membership.   
>In 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > this 
>>>>>> >> >>  way, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > new owner would feel  they are getting something and it 
>would 
>>>>>> >>  >> generate 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > membership,   
>>>>>> >> >> if we 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when  we sell, 
>then I 
>>>>>> >> >> don't   
>>>>>> >> >>>> have   
>>>>>> >> >>>> a 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > problem with it; especially if the list helps  my estate 
>sell 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the   
>>>>>> >> >> boat. 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> >  I'll 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a   
>"loyalty 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > fee",   
>>>>>> >> >> it is 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > probably to the list members who have taken  their time 
>and 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > been   
>>>>>> so 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  helpful 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > over the  years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep 
>GBI   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > in   
>>>>>> >> >>>> business   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > then that helps them  and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% 
>then 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > it 
>>>>>> >> >> gets my   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > buyer on the list free  for two years.  Then he/she can do 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> responsible 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > The other situation  which started the discussion in the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > beginning 
>>>>>> >> >> has   
>>>>>> >> >>>> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> do 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes.   
>>>>>>  If 
>>>>>> >> >> a   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > member   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has an after-market  item to sell to the list which is 
>unique 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > to 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> Rhodes 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale,   
>then 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > he/she   
>>>>>> >> >> goes 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > through you.  They can advertise it and  discuss it; but I 
>buy 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  it 
>>>>>> >> >> from 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> you 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be   
>advertised 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > on   
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > member's 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple  as 
>that. 
>>>>>>  They 
>>>>>> >>  >> are 
>>>>>> >> >>>> a   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > supplier of General  Boats and you are the distributor to 
>me. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Obviously, 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list  membership information is kept proprietary to prevent 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > direct 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> marketing 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your 
>back...   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > we   
>>>>>> >> >> can 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> take 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on  the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > open-market   
>>>>>> >> >> that 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> is 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then   
>that 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > is   
>>>>>> a 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum. 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think  he or 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > whomever   
>>>>>> >> >> takes 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> on 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > those duties gets their membership free.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I hope you will take  these suggestions under advisement 
>and if 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > it 
>>>>>> >> >> is of   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > interest, let us know  what you think the annual membership 
>fee 
>>>>>> >>  >> should 
>>>>>> >> >>>> be.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > For everyone else, let  the flaming begin....  But just 
>keep in 
>>>>>> mind   
>>>>>> >> >>>> what   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > purpose is here.   Trying to come up with something 
>palatable 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > to 
>>>>>> >> >> help   
>>>>>> >> >>>> GBI   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > now   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > and us in the long  run. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > David   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > PS:   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Other thoughts:   The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" 
>one of 
>>>>>> the   
>>>>>> >> >> best 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.   
>However,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > it   
>>>>>> >> >> needs 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> some 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More   
>timely 
>>>>>> >> >> information   
>>>>>> >> >>>> and   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > more emphasis on the  recycle program and availability of 
>used 
>>>>>> boats   
>>>>>> >> >>>> comes   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > mind since new boat  sales are down.  Also, have you ever 
>>>>>> considered   
>>>>>> >> >> a 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> new 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles 
>which   
>>>>>> >> >> someone 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> could 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about  a 
>racer 
>>>>>> before. 
>>>>>> >>  >>>>  Could 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > you come up with something without having to have new   
>>>>>> >> >> molds-marketed as   
>>>>>> >> >>>> a 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the  interior weight, put a 
>standard 
>>>>>> mast   
>>>>>> >> >> and 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.   Catalina has a "sport 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  model" 
>>>>>> >> >> and it   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > does   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > pretty well I  think.  Just some ideas I have batted 
>around. dc 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009  13:46:52 -0400 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > From:  "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint   
>(continued) 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > To: "The  Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>  
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Message-ID:  <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes> 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1" 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the 
>use   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of   
>>>>>> >> >> your 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> forum 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We want to thank those  that take issue with our position 
>but 
>>>>>> >>  >> attempt to 
>>>>>> >> >>>> be   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > evenhanded.  (If  academically interested, we can provide 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > exhibits 
>>>>>> >> >> and   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > witnesses that prove  the accuracy of our facts.) 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We are empathetic  with those who chafe at this sort of 
>thing 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > and 
>>>>>> >> >> remain   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > silent - in our  younger days we probably would have done 
>the 
>>>>>> same.   
>>>>>> >> >> It 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> was 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of   
>"never 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > again"   
>>>>>> >> >> and 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> took 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A  lawyer.  a 
>station 
>>>>>> wagon   
>>>>>> >> >>>> full   
>>>>>> >> >>>> of 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a  giant 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > corporation   
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all 
>these   
>>>>>> pro 
>>>>>> >> >> se   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > actions simply because  we do not complain unless the facts 
>and 
>>>>>> >>  >> logic 
>>>>>> >> >>>> are   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > solidly on our side -  but we digress. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > And, in particular, we  want to thank those who understand 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >> logical 
>>>>>> >> >>>> side   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of our position and  offered suggestions. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the  Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its 
>reasoning 
>>>>>>  seems 
>>>>>> >> >> so 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend  dissent.  Those 
>thinking 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > us 
>>>>>> >> >> crazy   
>>>>>> >> >>>> for   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > such radical thinking  have to sit in this chair for just 
>one 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > day. 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many 
>segments of   
>>>>>> >> >> industry 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> who 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these   
>>>>>> dissenters 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> seem 
>>>>>> >> >>>> to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > be drawing their own  grandfather clause line as to which 
>>>>>> industries   
>>>>>> >> >>>> should   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > not be entitled to  residuals on their efforts.   Those in 
>this 
>>>>>>  >> >> group 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  have 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > but to request  and we will expand on the good sense of 
>this 
>>>>>> >>  >> program. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> It   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has been emotionally  gratifying seeing former members of 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > "You 
>>>>>> >> >> must   
>>>>>> >> >>>> be 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the  "List" 
>family, 
>>>>>> seeing 
>>>>>>  >> >> the 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  light and converting. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the 50  years creating a unique product now 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > having 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> others 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not   
>>>>>> resolved, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> will 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > hallowed   
>>>>>> >> >> halls 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> of 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > ole 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not 
>stand   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the   
>>>>>> >> >> ethics 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> I 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it 
>was   
>>>>>> >> >>>> pre-ordained;   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > I   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > ended up spending most  of my life a driving capitalist.   
>And 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > it 
>>>>>> >> >>  has 
>>>>>> >> >>>> been   
>>>>>> >> >>>> a 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years -  because we 
>made the 
>>>>>> >> >> making   
>>>>>> >> >>>> of 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > money our secondary goal.   (The  effects of that kind of 
>>>>>> religious   
>>>>>> >> >>>> fervor   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > has surprisingly  turned out to be rough on our opponents.) 
>>>>>> There   
>>>>>> >> >> are 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> ways 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the   
>profitable 
>>>>>> parts 
>>>>>> >>  >> side 
>>>>>> >> >>>> of   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > GB's business::   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > When we sold Venture  Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could 
>buy 
>>>>>> sails   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > elsewhere and make an  additional profit on Roger's 
>creation at 
>>>>>> >>  >> Roger's 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at   
>>>>>> Stamford, 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> simply 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being 
>the   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > tough   
>>>>>> >> >>>> business   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > man he is, he did it  without notice and dealers had to eat 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > their 
>>>>>> >> >> sail   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > inventories they  bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners 
>but 
>>>>>>  could 
>>>>>> >> >>>> price   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes sales to  include a part an outside seller has 
>latched 
>>>>>> onto.   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> Or, 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply be  unresponsive to boat owners who 
>purchase 
>>>>>> parts,   
>>>>>> >> >>>> unique   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > the Rhodes design,  from others in competition with GB or 
>who 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > fail 
>>>>>> >> >> to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> honor   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > agreements with  GB.   We inherently do not like this 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > retaliatory 
>>>>>> >>  >> type 
>>>>>> >> >>>> of   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > solution, but it is a  solution.   Or 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply  close shop and that would close the market 
>for 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> unauthorized 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose"  solution is 
>not 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > our   
>>>>>> >> >>>> choice.   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  However, not  taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at 
>the 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > life 
>>>>>> >> >>  cash 
>>>>>> >> >>>> flow   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > of the company, makes  it an inevitable solution. 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  > 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > In an effort to avoid  any of the above solutions, based on 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >> thinking 
>>>>>> >> >>>> of   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > List members in this  particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, 
>we 
>>>>>> have   
>>>>>> >> >> some 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > proposals that we will present to the List next  week for 
>your 
>>>>>> >> >>>> appreciated   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > feedback.  The  pro bono time we are having to devote to 
>the 
>>>>>> >>  >> problems 
>>>>>> >> >>>> and   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > questions of private  sale Rhodes is becoming so 
>overwhelming 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > (and 
>>>>>> >> >> we   
>>>>>> >> >>>> hate   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > be mean spirited  enough to tell them where to go) that we 
>just 
>>>>>>  >> >> can't 
>>>>>> >> >>>>  seem 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > manage all of this  issue in one sitting. 
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>> > ss   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using  the 
>mailing 
>>>>>> >> >>>> > list   
>>>>>> go 
>>>>>> >> >> to   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>> >>  >>>> > __________________________________________________   
>>>>>> >> >>>> >   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing 
>list 
>>>>>> >> >>>> go   
>>>>>> >> >> to 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >> >>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >>>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing 
>list 
>>>>>> >> >>> go   
>>>>>> to 
>>>>>> >> >>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>> >> >>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >>> 
>>>>>> >> >>>   
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>> >>  >> -- 
>>>>>> >> >> View this message in  context: 
>>>>>> >> >> 
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>>   
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660   
>>>>>> >> >> 048p24697834.html   
>>>>>> >> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing  list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>>> >> >>   
>>>>>> >> >>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing   
>list 
>>>>>> >> >> go 
>>>>>> to   
>>>>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >> >>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >> 
>>>>>> >> >>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing   
>list 
>>>>>> >> >> go 
>>>>>> to   
>>>>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >> >>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> >> 
>>>>>> >> >>   
>>>>>> >> > 
>>>>>> >>  >-- 
>>>>>> >> >View this message in context:   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>>   
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24700483.html   
>>>>>> >> >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list  archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>>> >> >   
>>>>>> >>  >__________________________________________________   
>>>>>> >> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help  with using the mailing list 
>go 
>>>>>> >> >to   
>>>>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>> >>  >__________________________________________________   
>>>>>> >> 
>>>>>> >>   
>>>>>> >>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list 
>go   
>>>>>> >> to 
>>>>>> >>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>> >>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>  >> 
>>>>>>  >__________________________________________________   
>>>>>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using  the mailing list go 
>to 
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>>>  >__________________________________________________   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>to   
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>>>   
>>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list go 
>to 
>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>>> 
>>>   
>>>__________________________________________________ 
>>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>__________________________________________________   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 3 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:43:04 -0400   
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com> 
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued) 
>>To: "The Rhodes  22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:  <1BA7BBD3036947F289B013E52D813110 at rhodes> 
>>Content-Type:  text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; 
>>       reply-type=original 
>> 
>>I guess this is a dear John letter   
>> 
>>John Shulick, 
>> 
>>That does not sound like the  Stan I know.   I know I do not ignore the 
>good 
>>guys or the  bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I do know 
>I 
>>do not  get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not get through 
>as   
>>was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.   
>> 
>>While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you  are, please 
>do 
>>not feel slighted because 
>>at my age I have  trouble remembering if there are any Stands on the list. 
>> 
>>I do  note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my time) 
>and   
>>I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating wanting to   
>put a 
>>lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not  built by 
>us) I 
>>try very had to discourage them from pouring money into  it with the 
>advice 
>>to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more  recent model since the 
>>differences are so drastic. 
>> 
>>I  also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you got was 
>not   
>>satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell whole  boat 
>>and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you send 
>back 
>>any faulty parts - if not,  please do. 
>> 
>>ss 
>> 
>>----- Original Message -----   
>>From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39  PM 
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)   
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Ben, 
>>> 
>>> I  think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry has many 
>complex   
>>> factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not  shure 
>>> whether 
>>> it was the decisive factor in their  fall. As for the cost and what the 
>>> price 
>>> point would  be for a "sport model".  GB would have to make that 
>>>  determination. Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I   
>>> place 
>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat  on Ebay and not through 
>>> him. 
>>> After buying my boat I  approached him for a rudder and inquired about 
>some 
>>> various small  parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a tiller 
>for 
>>>  $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but   
>>> usable) 
>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade  myself. The request for small 
>parts 
>>> was ignored. Since I can take  a hint I now go to other sources for my 
>mast 
>>> parts, trailer parts  (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this week as 
>part 
>>> of   
>>> my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an   
>equivilent) , 
>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential  sales to me and by 
>the 
>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will  probably loose $2,000 more. 
>I 
>>> still am in the market for a 150  Genoa and a furler plus a complete set 
>of 
>>> standing rigging and  hardware. Like yourself I'm looking for parts and 
>>> accessories at  a fair and resonable price and will find or make them as 
>>> needed.   
>>> 
>>> John S 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>>> John; 
>>> You're referring to the old US car  manufacturers technique known as 
>"the 
>>> pizza principle". Sell the  basic model for a decent price but add on an 
>>> outrageous markup  for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts when 
>they 
>>> put all  the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color. 
>>>   
>>> I don't think the stripped down racing Rhodes would be that much  less 
>>> expensive to build, or that much cheaper to sell, but then  I'm not 
>>> building 
>>> or selling boats, or cars.   
>>> 
>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or  accessories without 
>>> losing 
>>> a friend, if I can help  it, and if it's fair and reasonable. 
>>> 
>>> BenCittadino   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> View this  message in context: 
>>>   
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24704459.html   
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.   
>>> 
>>> __________________________________________________   
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list  go to 
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>  __________________________________________________   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 4 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:49:10 -0400   
>>From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com> 
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued) 
>>To: "The Rhodes  22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:  <1D4BA299E8024EB6A63F0999A9BD8ED3 at rhodes> 
>>Content-Type:  text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; 
>>       reply-type=original 
>> 
>>even my typing is getting sloppy -   
>> 
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "stan"  <stan at rhodes22.com> 
>>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:43  AM 
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)   
>> 
>> 
>>>I guess this is a dear John letter 
>>>   
>>> John Shulick, 
>>> 
>>> That does not sound like  the Stan I know.   I know I do not ignore the 
>>> good   
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and I  do 
>know 
>>> I 
>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of  my e-mail does not get 
>through 
>>> as 
>>> was currently the  case with everyone using comcast.net. 
>>> 
>>> While I have a  lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are, please 
>do 
>>> not  feel slighted because 
>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if  there are any Stands on the 
>list. 
>>> 
>>> I do note that you  say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my 
>time) 
>>> and   
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from someone indicating  wanting to 
>put 
>>> a 
>>> lot of money into one of the first  Rhodes ever built (and not built by 
>us) 
>>> I 
>>> try very  had to discourage them from pouring money into it with the 
>advice 
>>>  to just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since the 
>  
>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>> 
>>> I also note  that you say we did sell you parts implying what you got 
>was 
>>> not   
>>> satisfactory but note that you did not say that we always tell  whole 
>boat 
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you send 
>>> back 
>>> any faulty  parts - if not, please do. 
>>> 
>>> ss 
>>>   
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John Shulick"  <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>> To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009  1:39 PM 
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ben,   
>>>> 
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US  auto industry has many 
>complex 
>>>> factors in it and while they  used the pizza principle I'm not shure 
>>>> whether   
>>>> it was the decisive factor in their fall. As for the cost and  what the 
>>>> price 
>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB would have to make that 
>>>> determination. Stan  does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I 
>>>> place   
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and  not through 
>>>> him. 
>>>> After buying my boat I  approached him for a rudder and inquired about 
>>>> some   
>>>> various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a  tiller 
>for 
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at the end bolted  to the rudder (but 
>>>> usable) 
>>>> and I had to seal  and paint the blade myself. The request for small 
>parts 
>>>> was  ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for my   
>>>> mast 
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a  new Dexter axle this week as 
>part 
>>>> of 
>>>> my  trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an 
>equivilent)   
>>>> , 
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in  potential sales to me and by 
>the 
>>>> time my 71 restoration is  finished he will probably loose $2,000 more. 
>I 
>>>> still am in  the market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a complete 
>set 
>>>>  of 
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking  for parts and 
>>>> accessories at a fair and resonable price and  will find or make them 
>as 
>>>> needed. 
>>>>   
>>>> John S 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>> John; 
>>>> You're referring to the old US car  manufacturers technique known as 
>"the 
>>>> pizza principle". Sell  the basic model for a decent price but add on 
>an 
>>>> outrageous  markup for each option. The Japanese kicked our butts when 
>>>>  they 
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice  was color. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think the stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much less 
>>>> expensive to build, or  that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not 
>>>> building   
>>>> or selling boats, or cars. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without   
>>>> losing 
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if  it's fair and reasonable. 
>>>> 
>>>> BenCittadino   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --   
>>>> View this message in context: 
>>>>   
>http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24704459.html   
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.   
>>>> 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
>  
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> 
>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>  __________________________________________________   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 5 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:11:31 -0400   
>>From: Lou Rosenberg <lsr3 at nyu.edu> 
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness 
>>To: The  Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:  <8ADB74E6-CF8C-4B63-B1BE-199E3A0F2676 at nyu.edu> 
>>Content-Type:  text/plain;        charset=US-ASCII;       delsp=yes;       
> format=flowed   
>> 
>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers like me,   
>> 
>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not taken  care of   
>>the boat and was basically dumping it in the back  of 
>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been on the list for about  a   
>>year before this and Stan advised me NOT to buy that  boat. 
>>I went against his advice and through the years , Stan and Elton  have   
>>helped me greatly.  I ended up only buying about  $1500, worth of rigging 
>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005,  but subsequently Elton   
>>brought up a much needed used   bow pulpit and new traveler assembly   
>>to my yard a few yrs  later. 
>> 
>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB  over the years   
>>but trust their judgement and of course  Stan was right, I should've   
>>waited and I may've found   
>>a better deal.  Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but there  are   
>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing is the  eventual goal and   
>>ive sacrificed many sailing days to get  where I am now. 
>> 
>>I owe so much to all the people on this list  ALL of you helping me   
>>out with questions for this novice  sailor who has few skills in terms   
>>of carpentry,  fibreglassing 
>>and the like.  Next Thurs I hope to launch Miracles  for the rest of   
>>the year, keeping her in the calm,  semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin   
>>all winter long.   
>> 
>>wish me luck , I'll need it. 
>> 
>>Stan, maybe its  time to bring in new blood and find a way to accept   
>>some  sort of retirement from all this grind? 
>> 
>>all the best   
>>and thanks for all your help 
>> 
>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>s/v  Miracles 
>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote: 
>> 
>>>  I guess this is a dear John letter 
>>> 
>>> John Shulick,   
>>> 
>>> That does not sound like the Stan I  know.   I know I do not ignore   
>>> the good   
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and  I   
>>> do know I 
>>> do not get all my e-mails  and that some of my e-mail does not get   
>>> through as   
>>> was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.   
>>> 
>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which  one you are,   
>>> please do 
>>> not feel slighted  because 
>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any  Stands on the   
>>> list. 
>>> 
>>> I do  note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my     
>>> time) and 
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from  someone indicating wanting   
>>> to put a 
>>> lot  of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built     
>>> by us) I 
>>> try very had to discourage them from  pouring money into it with the   
>>> advice 
>>> to  just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since     
>>> the 
>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>>   
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what  you   
>>> got was not 
>>> satisfactory but note  that you did not say that we always tell   
>>> whole boat   
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you   
>>> send back   
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do. 
>>> 
>>>  ss 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From:  "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>> To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009  1:39 PM 
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ben,   
>>>> 
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US  auto industry has many   
>>>> complex 
>>>>  factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure   
>>>> whether 
>>>> it was the decisive factor in their  fall. As for the cost and what   
>>>> the   
>>>> price 
>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB would have to make that 
>>>> determination. Stan  does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I 
>>>> place   
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and  not   
>>>> through 
>>>> him.   
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and  inquired   
>>>> about some 
>>>> various  small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a     
>>>> tiller for 
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at  the end bolted to the rudder (but 
>>>> usable) 
>>>>  and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for     
>>>> small parts 
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a  hint I now go to other sources for   
>>>> my mast   
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this  week   
>>>> as part 
>>>> of 
>>>>  my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an     
>>>> equivilent) , 
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over  $2,000 in potential sales to me and   
>>>> by the   
>>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose  $2,000   
>>>> more. I 
>>>> still am in the  market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a   
>>>>  complete set of 
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself  I'm looking for parts   
>>>> and 
>>>>  accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make     
>>>> them as 
>>>> needed. 
>>>>   
>>>> John S 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>> John; 
>>>> You're referring to the old US car  manufacturers technique known   
>>>> as "the   
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but  add   
>>>> on an 
>>>> outrageous markup for  each option. The Japanese kicked our butts   
>>>> when  they 
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice  was color. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think the stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much less 
>>>> expensive to build, or  that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not 
>>>> building   
>>>> or selling boats, or cars. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without   
>>>> losing 
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if  it's fair and reasonable. 
>>>> 
>>>> BenCittadino   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --   
>>>> View this message in context: 
>>>>  http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-   
>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html 
>>>> Sent from the  Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>   
>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing  list   
>>>> go to 
>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> 
>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go     
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>> 
>>Lou  Rosenberg 
>>Videographer 
>> 
>>Steinhardt School of Culture,  Education and 
>>Human Development at NYU 
>> 
>>239 Greene  Street, Room 315 
>>lsr3 at nyu.edu 
>> 
>>(212) 998-5122   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 6 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:04:28 -0400 (EDT)   
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>   
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness   
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>Message-ID: 
>>         
><25945721.1248879868382.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>   
>>         
>>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=UTF-8 
>> 
>>Lou, 
>> 
>>My guess is retirement in  10-15 years, although I marvel at his, Rose's, 
>and Elton's energy in this  business arena.  The composite support effort I 
>have seen by Rhoadies to  help other fleet skippers is incredible, and will 
>become even more vital in  the years ahead.  As parts and accessories may 
>become less available, I,  for one, have been keeping my eye out for 
>alternatives.  As I discovered  a year ago, the spreader brackets are available from 
>Dwyer  (I'd keep a  close eye on your's if they become distorted with mast 
>stepping using the old  GB method).   The alternative transom crutch I use 
>and posted can be  fabricated by a SS shop I have done work with. 
>> 
>>I have been  told that replacement parts is one of the greatest concerns 
>of fleet skippers  if we cannot obtain from GB, a problem I encountered as 
>long as two years  ago.  I have usually been able to find a substitute as 
>necessary.   Maybe we can delay Stan's retirement until 20 years! 
>> 
>>Art   
>> 
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>>From: Lou Rosenberg  <lsr3 at nyu.edu> 
>>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 10:11 AM 
>>>To:  The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all  fairness 
>>> 
>>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers  like me, 
>>> 
>>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who  had not taken care of   
>>>the boat and was basically  dumping it in the back of 
>>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had  been on the list for about a   
>>>year before this and Stan  advised me NOT to buy that boat. 
>>>I went against his advice and  through the years , Stan and Elton have   
>>>helped me  greatly.  I ended up only buying about $1500, worth of rigging 
>  
>>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005, but subsequently  Elton   
>>>brought up a much needed used  bow pulpit  and new traveler assembly   
>>>to my yard a few yrs later.   
>>> 
>>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB  over the years   
>>>but trust their judgement and of course  Stan was right, I should've   
>>>waited and I may've found   
>>>a better deal.  Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but  there are   
>>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing is  the eventual goal and   
>>>ive sacrificed many sailing days  to get where I am now. 
>>> 
>>>I owe so much to all the  people on this list ALL of you helping me   
>>>out with  questions for this novice sailor who has few skills in terms     
>>>of carpentry, fibreglassing 
>>>and the like.  Next  Thurs I hope to launch Miracles for the rest of   
>>>the  year, keeping her in the calm, semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin     
>>>all winter long. 
>>> 
>>>wish me luck , I'll need  it. 
>>> 
>>>Stan, maybe its time to bring in new blood and  find a way to accept   
>>>some sort of retirement from all  this grind? 
>>> 
>>>all the best 
>>>and thanks for  all your help 
>>> 
>>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>>s/v Miracles   
>>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote: 
>>>   
>>>> I guess this is a dear John letter 
>>>>   
>>>> John Shulick, 
>>>> 
>>>> That does not  sound like the Stan I know.   I know I do not ignore     
>>>> the good 
>>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe  with one exception or two) and I   
>>>> do know I   
>>>> do not get all my e-mails and that some of my e-mail does not  get   
>>>> through as 
>>>> was currently the  case with everyone using comcast.net. 
>>>> 
>>>> While  I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which one you are,     
>>>> please do 
>>>> not feel slighted because   
>>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any Stands  on the   
>>>> list. 
>>>> 
>>>> I  do note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my     
>>>> time) and 
>>>> I do know that when I get an  e-mail from someone indicating wanting   
>>>> to put a   
>>>> lot of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not  built   
>>>> by us) I 
>>>> try very had to  discourage them from pouring money into it with the     
>>>> advice 
>>>> to just sail it as is and when ready,  get a more recent model since   
>>>> the   
>>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what you     
>>>> got was not 
>>>> satisfactory but note that you  did not say that we always tell   
>>>> whole boat   
>>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you   
>>>> send back   
>>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do. 
>>>>   
>>>> ss 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message  ----- 
>>>> From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>   
>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>>> Sent:  Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:39 PM 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]  general boat's complaint (continued) 
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ben, 
>>>>>   
>>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US auto industry  has many   
>>>>> complex 
>>>>> factors  in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure   
>>>>> whether 
>>>>> it was the decisive factor  in their fall. As for the cost and what   
>>>>> the   
>>>>> price 
>>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB would have to make that 
>>>>> determination.  Stan does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I 
>>>>>  place 
>>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on  Ebay and not   
>>>>> through 
>>>>>  him. 
>>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder  and inquired   
>>>>> about some 
>>>>>  various small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a     
>>>>> tiller for 
>>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a  crack at the end bolted to the rudder (but 
>>>>> usable)   
>>>>> and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request  for   
>>>>> small parts 
>>>>> was  ignored. Since I can take a hint I now go to other sources for     
>>>>> my mast 
>>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am  bolting on a new Dexter axle this week   
>>>>> as  part 
>>>>> of 
>>>>> my trailer overhaul this is  an exact replacement part not an   
>>>>> equivilent)  , 
>>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over $2,000 in potential sales  to me and   
>>>>> by the 
>>>>> time my  71 restoration is finished he will probably loose $2,000     
>>>>> more. I 
>>>>> still am in the market for a  150 Genoa and a furler plus a   
>>>>> complete set of   
>>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself I'm looking  for parts   
>>>>> and 
>>>>>  accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make     
>>>>> them as 
>>>>> needed. 
>>>>>   
>>>>> John S 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>> 
>>>>> John; 
>>>>> You're  referring to the old US car manufacturers technique known     
>>>>> as "the 
>>>>> pizza principle". Sell the  basic model for a decent price but add   
>>>>> on an   
>>>>> outrageous markup for each option. The Japanese kicked  our butts   
>>>>> when they 
>>>>> put  all the good stuff in every car and the only choice was color.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think the stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much less 
>>>>> expensive to build,  or that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not 
>>>>> building   
>>>>> or selling boats, or cars. 
>>>>>   
>>>>> I just want to know where I can get parts and/or  accessories without 
>>>>> losing 
>>>>> a friend,  if I can help it, and if it's fair and reasonable. 
>>>>>   
>>>>> BenCittadino 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> View this  message in context: 
>>>>>  http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-   
>>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html 
>>>>> Sent from  the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>>   
>>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the  mailing list   
>>>>> go to 
>>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>>>   
>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing  list go   
>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>> 
>>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>>Videographer 
>>>   
>>>Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and 
>>>Human  Development at NYU 
>>> 
>>>239 Greene Street, Room 315   
>>>lsr3 at nyu.edu 
>>> 
>>>(212) 998-5122 
>>>   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>>>__________________________________________________ 
>>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>__________________________________________________   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 7 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:05:27 -0400   
>>From: "Lowe, Rob" <rlowe at vt.edu> 
>>Subject: Re:  [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in all fairness 
>>To: "The  Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>Message-ID:   
>>         <7A5B57319AFF9D4A8060949F2E724D5E02B8B38D at mirkwood.cc.w2k.vt.edu> 
>  
>>Content-Type: text/plain;         charset="us-ascii" 
>> 
>>Lou, 
>>Good luck to you!  It's  been fun following along with your trials and 
>>progress over the  years.  I could have done what you have done, I'm glad 
>>my '76 was  sailable from day one. 
>> 
>>Now where is Mill Basin and Rockaway  Inlet exactly?  I'm hunting on 
>>yahoo maps and you're in the New  York area?? - Rob 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>-----Original Message-----   
>>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org   
>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Lou Rosenberg   
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:12 AM 
>>To: The Rhodes 22  Email List 
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint /in  all fairness 
>> 
>>Rhodes owners, wanna be owners, and lurkers like  me, 
>> 
>>I bought my R22 from a discouraged owner who had not taken  care of   
>>the boat and was basically dumping it in the back  of 
>>a Pt Jefferson yard back in '04. I had been on the list for about  a   
>>year before this and Stan advised me NOT to buy that  boat. 
>>I went against his advice and through the years , Stan and Elton  have   
>>helped me greatly.  I ended up only buying about  $1500, worth of rigging 
>>and supplies on a visit to Edenton NC in 2005,  but subsequently Elton   
>>brought up a much needed used   bow pulpit and new traveler assembly   
>>to my yard a few yrs  later. 
>> 
>>In all fairness I have not bought that much from GB  over the years   
>>but trust their judgement and of course  Stan was right, I should've   
>>waited and I may've found   
>>a better deal.  Restoring any boat is NOT that much fun but there  are   
>>rewards of doing it yourself, but sailing is the  eventual goal and   
>>ive sacrificed many sailing days to get  where I am now. 
>> 
>>I owe so much to all the people on this list  ALL of you helping me   
>>out with questions for this novice  sailor who has few skills in terms   
>>of carpentry,  fibreglassing 
>>and the like.  Next Thurs I hope to launch Miracles  for the rest of   
>>the year, keeping her in the calm,  semi-polluted waters of Mill Basin   
>>all winter long.   
>> 
>>wish me luck , I'll need it. 
>> 
>>Stan, maybe its  time to bring in new blood and find a way to accept   
>>some  sort of retirement from all this grind? 
>> 
>>all the best   
>>and thanks for all your help 
>> 
>>Lou Rosenberg 
>>s/v  Miracles 
>>On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:43 AM, stan wrote: 
>> 
>>>  I guess this is a dear John letter 
>>> 
>>> John Shulick,   
>>> 
>>> That does not sound like the Stan I  know.   I know I do not ignore   
>>> the good   
>>> guys or the bad guys (well maybe with one exception or two) and  I   
>>> do know I 
>>> do not get all my e-mails  and that some of my e-mail does not get   
>>> through as   
>>> was currently the case with everyone using comcast.net.   
>>> 
>>> While I have a lot of Johns and do not recall which  one you are,   
>>> please do 
>>> not feel slighted  because 
>>> at my age I have trouble remembering if there are any  Stands on the   
>>> list. 
>>> 
>>> I do  note that you say you have a 71 Rhodes (almost even before my     
>>> time) and 
>>> I do know that when I get an e-mail from  someone indicating wanting   
>>> to put a 
>>> lot  of money into one of the first Rhodes ever built (and not built     
>>> by us) I 
>>> try very had to discourage them from  pouring money into it with the   
>>> advice 
>>> to  just sail it as is and when ready, get a more recent model since     
>>> the 
>>> differences are so drastic. 
>>>   
>>> I also note that you say we did sell you parts implying what  you   
>>> got was not 
>>> satisfactory but note  that you did not say that we always tell   
>>> whole boat   
>>> and parts buyers that everything from us is  returnable.   Did you   
>>> send back   
>>> any faulty parts - if not, please do. 
>>> 
>>>  ss 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From:  "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net> 
>>> To:  <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009  1:39 PM 
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint  (continued) 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ben,   
>>>> 
>>>> I think the demise of the demise of the US  auto industry has many   
>>>> complex 
>>>>  factors in it and while they used the pizza principle I'm not shure   
>>>> whether 
>>>> it was the decisive factor in their  fall. As for the cost and what   
>>>> the   
>>>> price 
>>>> point would be for a "sport  model".  GB would have to make that 
>>>> determination. Stan  does not seem to notice or respond to any posts I 
>>>> place   
>>>> on this Forum perhaps because I bought my boat on Ebay and  not   
>>>> through 
>>>> him.   
>>>> After buying my boat I approached him for a rudder and  inquired   
>>>> about some 
>>>> various  small parts. He sold me a used rudder assembly with a     
>>>> tiller for 
>>>> $750.00 The tiller had a crack at  the end bolted to the rudder (but 
>>>> usable) 
>>>>  and I had to seal and paint the blade myself. The request for     
>>>> small parts 
>>>> was ignored. Since I can take a  hint I now go to other sources for   
>>>> my mast   
>>>> parts, trailer parts (I am bolting on a new Dexter axle this  week   
>>>> as part 
>>>> of 
>>>>  my trailer overhaul this is an exact replacement part not an     
>>>> equivilent) , 
>>>> and sails. Stan has lost over  $2,000 in potential sales to me and   
>>>> by the   
>>>> time my 71 restoration is finished he will probably loose  $2,000   
>>>> more. I 
>>>> still am in the  market for a 150 Genoa and a furler plus a   
>>>>  complete set of 
>>>> standing rigging and hardware. Like yourself  I'm looking for parts   
>>>> and 
>>>>  accessories at a fair and resonable price and will find or make     
>>>> them as 
>>>> needed. 
>>>>   
>>>> John S 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>> John; 
>>>> You're referring to the old US car  manufacturers technique known   
>>>> as "the   
>>>> pizza principle". Sell the basic model for a decent price but  add   
>>>> on an 
>>>> outrageous markup for  each option. The Japanese kicked our butts   
>>>> when  they 
>>>> put all the good stuff in every car and the only choice  was color. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think the stripped down  racing Rhodes would be that much less 
>>>> expensive to build, or  that much cheaper to sell, but then I'm not 
>>>> building   
>>>> or selling boats, or cars. 
>>>> 
>>>>  I just want to know where I can get parts and/or accessories without   
>>>> losing 
>>>> a friend, if I can help it, and if  it's fair and reasonable. 
>>>> 
>>>> BenCittadino   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --   
>>>> View this message in context: 
>>>>  http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-   
>>>> tp24660048p24704459.html 
>>>> Sent from the  Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>>   
>>>> __________________________________________________   
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing  list   
>>>> go to 
>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> 
>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>>> To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go     
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>>  __________________________________________________ 
>> 
>>Lou  Rosenberg 
>>Videographer 
>> 
>>Steinhardt School of Culture,  Education and 
>>Human Development at NYU 
>> 
>>239 Greene  Street, Room 315 
>>lsr3 at nyu.edu 
>> 
>>(212) 998-5122   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>__________________________________________________   
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>__________________________________________________   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>Message: 8 
>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:30:55 -0400 (EDT)   
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>   
>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing   
>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>Message-ID: 
>>     
><10147864.1248881456189.JavaMail.root at elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>   
>>         
>>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=UTF-8 
>> 
>>Caesar, 
>> 
>>How goes the  sailing?  I have been told of the excellent sailing in the 
>Wyoming area  by a member of the Montgomery fleet, possibly not far from you 
>at all.   Apparently Yellowstone Lake is excellent, with the only exception 
>being a  fixed bridge between the lake and marina.  The same skipper 
>reported that  Jackson Lake has no obstructions to contend with, and is much more 
>favorable  anyway, apparently even warm enough to swim in.  My Swedish 
>cousins laugh  at our caution about cold water and insist they usually break the 
>Baltic ice  to take a refreshing dip. 
>> 
>>I am told the marinas on the south  shore are impressive, and the only 
>irritant is mosquitos in the shallow water  areas of the lake. 
>> 
>>Have you tried sailing here?  I camped  there years ago, and it is awesome 
>scenery. 
>> 
>>Best to you,   
>> 
>>Art 
>> 
>> 
>>------------------------------   
>> 
>>_______________________________________________   
>>Rhodes22-list mailing list 
>>Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org   
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list   
>> 
>> 
>>End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931, Issue 1   
>>**********************************************   
>>__________________________________________________ 
>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>>__________________________________________________ 
>
>
>__________________________________________________ 
>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>__________________________________________________ 
>
>
>__________________________________________________ 
>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>__________________________________________________ 
>
>
>**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
>steps! 
>(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd 
>=JulystepsfooterNO115) 
>
>
>------------------------------ 
>
>Message: 3 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:38:57 -0400 
>From: Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway 
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> 
>Message-ID: 
>        <c319c8b50907311738p1b340255g8a37568337f9e0 at mail.gmail.com> 
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 
>
>Leland, 
>
>In your scenario it is not critical because you are trying to go to a point 
>the is more on a broad reach.  However, if you look at my version and 
>consider this scenario. 
>
>Here, we want to sail from A to C.  With the board down we can sail directly 
>there.  However, with the board up, we end up at B instead of C.  We then 
>need to tack and sail the extra distance.  The speed gained with the board 
>up does not make up for the extra distance we had to sail. 
>
>Hank 
>
>On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Leland <LKUHN at cnmc.org> wrote: 
>
>> 
>> 
>> David, 
>> 
>> Everything I've read indicates that you are right.  Many of the times that 
>> I've measured the effects of the centerboard I've noticed more than a ten 
>> degree improvement into the wind.  However, every time I put the board down 
>> I slow down.  Every time I raise the board I speed up. 
>> 
>> Hopefully this picture will come through: 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p24764138/Sail%2BSpeed.ppt Sail+Speed.ppt 
>> 
>> Let's assume you're sailing from point A to B with the board up.  Doesn't 
>> matter how much you drift because you're still going from point A to B.  If 
>> you put the board down you can sail more into the wind and you are able to 
>> sail from point A to C.  To get to point B you would then need to sail from 
>> point C to A.  Even if you weren't sailing slower with the board down, 
>> wouldn't it take you longer to go from point A to C to B than sailing 
>> directly from point A to B? 
>> 
>> Am I missing something? 
>> 
>> Unless I want to go more into the wind, it still seems like the best reason 
>> to put the board down is to knock the barnacles off. 
>> 
>> Lee 
>> 
>> 
>> Yesterday I got the chance to sail in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat 
>> water.  I set the boat up on a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).  The 
>> course was was 060 M by my steering compass.  We were able to do about 
>> .5  - 4 kts SOG by the GPS. 
>> 
>> With the board down our  COG (Course over ground) was 055-057 M 
>> With the board up out COG  was 045-048 M 
>> 
>> Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has unknown 
>> deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has no importance 
>> here.  Lowering the board reduced leeway by about 10 degrees.  Lowering the 
>> board had no observed effect on SOG although wind variation could have 
>> hidden a small effect.  Based on these results I see no reason to sail with 
>> the board up unless in very thin water and one very good reason to sail 
>> with 
>> it down. 
>> 
>> David Walker 
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24764138.html 
>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>> 
>> __________________________________________________ 
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list 
>> __________________________________________________ 
>> 
>
>
>------------------------------ 
>
>Message: 4 
>Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:41:42 -0700 (PDT) 
>From: BenCittadino <bencittadino at gmail.com> 
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes Crew Gear 
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>Message-ID: <24765265.post at talk.nabble.com> 
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 
>
>
>Michael M and/or Rummy and/or Whomever (Whoever?...whatever): 
>
>Your reference to a Rhodes logo comes at an interesting time for me. I was 
>thinking about ordering up some gift "crew member" polo shirts for my kids 
>and grandkids using a generic sailboat logo of some kind embroidered on them 
>along with the name of my boat.  I have now noticed the "snazzy" Rhodes Logo 
>on the Rhodes' Owners web page. Is that the logo you are talking about? Who 
>does that logo belong to? Whose permission do I need to use it on my shirts? 
>If it is already on shirts sold by Lands End can they produce custom shirts 
>with my boat name? Your feedback would be appreciated. 
>
>BenCittadino 
>SV Susan Kay ('93 recycled '08) 
>Highlands, NJ 
>
>
>
>  
>
>R22RumRunner wrote: 
>> 
>> Michael, 
>>   
>>   
>> Yes, they still have the logo. I have the information on a different   
>> computer. I will send it to you later. 
>>   
>> Rummy 
>>   
>>   
>> In a message dated 7/30/2009 9:22:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,   
>> mjm at michaelmeltzer.com writes: 
>> 
>> Is the  rhodes22 logo still on file with lands end? Rummy you remember or 
>> one  else? 
>> 
>> -mjm 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org 
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]  On Behalf Of Arthur H. 
>> Czerwonky 
>> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:23  PM 
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List 
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>> 
>> Deena, 
>> 
>> Do you think an inscribed ball point, one  worth keeping and using, would 
>> make sense?  We just need to 'blue sky'  this show... 
>> 
>> I stitched a miniature sail bag once, it was made of  actual sailcloth and 
>> was embroidered.  Really quality you wouldn't pitch  in file 13.  Maybe an 
>> embossed key chain with a small fiberglass piece  (of hull) as a hanger.   
>> There must be soms scrap around the GB  facility.  " You have a small part 
>> of 
>> the boat, we can deliver the rest  in a few months."  Let's stretch our 
>> imagination over Stan  (SOS)! 
>> 
>> Art 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>>>From:  captainpy at comcast.net 
>>>Sent: Jul 29, 2009 4:56 PM 
>>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes  Promotions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>Stan!!!!!!!!     
>>> 
>>>How about a Rhodes 22 T-shirt That says "Ask me about my  Rhodes"  )On one 
>> side a picture and on the other GB's web address?   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>Deena AKA Captain Py   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>>>----- Original Message -----   
>>>From: rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>>>To:  rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:00:39 PM  GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
>>>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1931,  Issue 1 
>>> 
>>>Send Rhodes22-list mailing list submissions to   
>>>        rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org   
>>> 
>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit   
>>>         http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list 
>>>or, via email,  send a message with subject or body 'help' to 
>>>       rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org 
>>> 
>>>You can reach the  person managing the list at 
>>>         rhodes22-list-owner at rhodes22.org 
>>> 
>>>When replying, please edit  your Subject line so it is more specific 
>>>than "Re: Contents of  Rhodes22-list digest..." 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>Today's Topics:   
>>> 
>>>   1. Re: Stuff that works - pest control solutions  (Jim Connolly) 
>>>   2. Re: Fw:  general boat's dilema  (Arthur H. Czerwonky) 
>>>   3. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>>   4. Re: general boat's complaint  (continued) (stan) 
>>>   5. Re: general boat's complaint /in  all fairness (Lou Rosenberg) 
>>>   6. Re: general boat's  complaint /in all fairness 
>>>      (Arthur H. Czerwonky)   
>>>   7. Re: general boat's complaint /in all fairness (Lowe,  Rob) 
>>>   8. Yellowstone Lake, Jackson Lake Sailing (Arthur H.  Czerwonky)   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------   
>>> 
>>>Message: 1 
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:01:17 -0400   
>>>From: "Jim Connolly" <jbconnolly at comcast.net> 
>>>Subject:  Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions 
>>>To:  "'The Rhodes 22 Email List'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>   
>>>Message-ID: <200907290201.n6T21ZTY022293 at raeid23.raenet.com>   
>>>Content-Type: text/plain;         charset="us-ascii" 
>>> 
>>>I had hornets and wasps in the coaming  right before launch, so I needed a 
>>>fast solution.     
>>> 
>>>I found a non-toxic wasp killer spray that is based on mint  oil ("poison 
>>>free" from Victor Pest Control).  It took a whole  can, but seemed to 
>> work. 
>>>The smell repelled or confused returning  wasps, and those that were home 
>>>when I sprayed (at least some of them)  died. 
>>> 
>>>Jim Connolly 
>>>s/v Inisheer 
>>>   
>>> 
>>>-----Original Message----- 
>>>From:  rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org   
>>>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Lock   
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:29 PM 
>>>To: Rhodes 22   
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stuff that works - pest control solutions   
>>> 
>>>Last year I had a couple of pest problems that many people  responded too 
>>>with helpful suggestions.  Here's what my results  were - 
>>> 
>>>1) Problem - spider webs in the rigging (especially  masthead fly) 
>> Solution - 
>>>WD40.  I had the mast down early this  spring to fix several things.   
>> Before 
>>>raising again, I sprayed  WD40 liberally on the masthead, Windex, VHF 
>>>antenna, and diamond  stays.  So far (5 months 
>>>later) not a single web!  Still get  them down lower where I didn't spray, 
>> so 
>>>we know the spiders are still  there.  But they don't want to (or can't) 
>>>start webs on the WD40  treated portion. 
>>> 
>>>2) Problem - paper wasps building nests under  the cockpit coaming 
>> Solution - 
>>>clothes drier sheets.  Middle of  last summer I stapled a bunch of drier 
>>>sheets into the wood backing up  under the coaming on both sides.  No wasp 
>>>nests have appeared in  almost a year now.  I see some more wasp activity 
>>>now, so I  suspect it's time to renew the sheets.  But that's a cheap and   
>>>effective control. 
>>> 
>>>Now if only I could figure out what  to do about the ants coming aboard 
>> from 
>>>shore....   
>>> 
>>>Cheers! 
>>>John Lock 
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>>>s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22 
>>>Lake Sinclair, GA   
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   
>>> 
>>>__________________________________________________ 
>>>To  subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to   
>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/list   
>>>__________________________________________________   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>------------------------------   
>>> 
>>>Message: 2 
>>>Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:31:43 -0400 (EDT)   
>>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>   
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] F 
>
>[Message truncated] 
>
>__________________________________________________
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