[Rhodes22-list] My 8 cents worth
captainpy at comcast.net
captainpy at comcast.net
Wed Aug 5 13:17:13 EDT 2009
I understand what everyone here is saying. Alot of good points and Ideas. Things being the way they are everyone's sales are down. Many people I know and I as well are tired of buying cheap crap that doesn't last and would happily pay the additional amount for what they get. Anyone that is going to purchase a boat is going to do so with the idea in mind that they plan on keeping it a while. I really believe that the quality, craftsmanship and outstanding customer service put into each Rhodes speaks for itself. My suggestion is to be more visible. Please take no offense but from what I observe things could be promoted more and without additional expense for that.
Deena
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Michigan (Rick)
2. Re: Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway (BenCittadino)
3. Re: Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
(david.walker5 at comcast.net)
4. Water tanks .... was .... Re: Michigan (Mike Cheung)
5. water in the laz (Joe Babb)
6. Re: Now comes General Boats (stan)
7. Re: Now comes General Boats (Scott Badley)
8. Re: Now comes General Boats (David Bradley)
9. Re: Michigan (R22RumRunner at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 22:36:50 -0400
From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Michigan
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
<52e9a140908041936m58fe5ecbv30212cd4c6fcc63b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Bob,
More silicon in the lid or less water in the tank.
Rick
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Bob Keller <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> Rick,
>
> I tries exactly the same thing with my plastic Rubbermaid water tank. I
> put silicone sealant all around and then screwed the lid back on. It still
> leaks. Any other ideas?
>
> Bob K
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:17:59 -0400
> > From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Michigan
> >
> > Although the newer tanks vent to the outside, for many years they have
> > actually been plastic tubs with a sealed lid. In my case, screen door
> > screws were all that were used to seal the lid which is very convenient
> for
> > cleaning and sponging dry for the winter. However, a full tub still
> leaked
> > over the top when the boat heeled until I made a silicone sealant gasket
> > inside the lid.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Roger's boat was from the 70s and he was constantly making changes
> > > and improvements. Like many other things on the Rhodes 22, I suspect
> > > that water tanks vary all over the place.
> > >
> > > Mary Lou
> > > 1991 R22 Fretless
> > > Rock Hall, MD
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 06:01 PM 8/3/2009, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >Mary Lou:
> > > >
> > > >Thank you for the link to Roger's account. I enjoyed reading his
> story.
> > > I
> > > >agree with Al that the Rhodes 22 is probably better suited for Lake
> > > >Charlevoix rather than the extreme weather that can be encountered on
> Lake
> > > >Michigan.
> > > >
> > > >I notice that Roger notes the bildge had about 5 gallons of water
> mostly
> > > >from his neglect to close the vent on his fresh water tank. Is this a
> > > >common practice, to close the fresh water vent? I think my holding
> tank
> > > and
> > > >fresh water tank both vent to the outside so this shouldn't be a
> problem?
> > > >Maybe Roger has a different set up?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Mary Lou Troy-2 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > There is an account of Roger Pihlaja's trip to Garden Island and
> > > > > Beaver Island in his Rhodes 22 in the old Rhodes FAQ here:
> > > > > http://www.geocities.com/blew_skies/gardeni.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that Roger is a fine sailor and outdoorsman. He also used
> > > > > regularly post accounts of winter camping trips with his sons.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mary Lou
> > > > > 1991 R22 Fretless
> > > > > Rock Hall, MD
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 12:58 AM 8/3/2009, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>Cowie,
> > > > >>Several years ago I sailed with my son on our 32-footer from
> > > > >>Traverse City to Charlevoix, MackinacIsland, then down to Beaver
> > > > >>Island, back to Charlevoix and its long lake. I wouldn't do it on
> > > > >>our Rhodes 22 because the waves can build up to 6 ft. even in the
> > > > >>best weather, I suppose due to thelong fetch. I think Charlevoix
> > > > >>Lake would be quite nice for your R 22, as well as maybe the two
> > > > >>Traverse City Bays.
> > > > >>Al Keblinskas
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 19:20:56 -0700
> > > > >> > From: ccowie at cowieassociates.com
> > > > >> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michigan
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Have any rhodies sailed to beaver island, makinaw, north
> > > > >> channell? Are these
> > > > >> > areas to challengng for a r22? I live in Washington dc but have
> > > spent
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > last 25 summer.vacations in charleviox mi and may eventualy
> trailer
> > > my
> > > > >> boat
> > > > >> > from the Chesapeake to michigan.
> > > > >> > --
> > > > >> > View this message in context:
> > > > >> http://www.nabble.com/Michigan-tp24784418p24784418.html
> > > > >> > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > __________________________________________________
> > > > >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> > > > >> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >> > __________________________________________________
> > > > >>
> > > > >>_________________________________________________________________
> > > > >>Get your vacation photos on your phone!
> > > > >>
> > >
> http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM
> > > > >>__________________________________________________
> > > > >>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> > > > >>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > >>__________________________________________________
> > > > >>
> > > > >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > > >>Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.41/2277 - Release Date:
> > > > >>08/02/09 05:56:00
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > > > > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > > > >
> > > > > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> archives
> > > go
> > > > > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >View this message in context:
> > > >http://www.nabble.com/Michigan-tp24784418p24798931.html
> > > >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________________________
> > > >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > > >http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > > >
> > > >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> > > >archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >__________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > >Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.41/2277 - Release Date:
> > > >08/02/09 05:56:00
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> > >
> > > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> go
> > > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> >
> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get free photo software from Windows Live
>
> http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009
> __________________________________________________
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 19:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: BenCittadino <bencittadino at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <24819880.post at talk.nabble.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mary Lou;
Your last sentence turned the light bulb on for me. You ought to write a
book, or a chapter, like a chapter 5 in "Sailing Small". Thanks for the
explication of the explanation, and thanks for chapter 5 too.
BenCittadino
Mary Lou Troy-2 wrote:
>
> Ben,
> The key to understanding this is the lateral resistance part. The
> centerboard resists the boat's tendency to move sideways through the
> water due to the pressure of the wind on the sails. If you raise the
> centerboard, the resistance to moving sideways decreases. Because the
> boat moves sideways to get out of the way of the wind, it doesn't heel as
> much.
>
> Mary Lou
> 1991 R22 Fretless
> Rock Hall, MD
>
>
>
> At 09:48 PM 8/4/2009, you wrote:
>
>>David;
>>
>>I read the quote three times and I'm still pretty sure I don't get it. In
>>fact, I'm very sure I don't get it. I understand it, and I believe it (I
>>guess) but I don't get it. My gut tells me the farther down the board is
the
>>the more resistance to heeling there would be (and my gut is substantial).
>>
>>I love this thread because there are few people who know less than I do
>>about sailing, and this kind of fundamental advice is very helpful.
Thanks
>>for taking the trouble to post that reference. I need to read it a few
more
>>times.
>>
>>BenCittadino
>>
>>
>>
>>david.walker5 wrote:
>> >
>> > Lee,
>> >
>> > Credit where credit is due. I just ran across a reference in a book
>> > called
>> > "Better Sailing" by Richard Henderson. He also wrote a great book on
>> > heavy
>> > weather sailing called "Sea Sense". Any way, I quote from the book
>> >
>> > "...it is not always realized that heeling can be reduced on a boat
>> having
>> > an unballasted centerboard by partially raising the board. This raises
>> > the
>> > center of lateral resistance (CLR), thereby reducing the heeling arm,
>> the
>> > vertical distance between the CLR and the center of effort (the
>> geometric
>> > center of the sails) ... In heavy weather, centerboardsshould almost
>> never
>> > be raised all the way, however, because the boat will generally make
>> too
>> > much leeway ar loose directional stability and also because the board
>> acts
>> > as a roll damper."
>> >
>> > I think the key here is the "partially raising the board. Anyway good
>> > observation. If leeway is not a concern, raising the board can reduce
>> > heeling.
>> >
>> >
>> > David Walker
>> >
>> > www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>> >
>> > Event Specialists
>> >
>> > 781-639-2707 Office
>> > 781-718-8690 Cell
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:45 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
>> >
>> >
>> >> Yesterday I got the chance to sail in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat
>> >> water. I set the boat up on a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).
>> >> The
>> >> course was was 060 M by my steering compass. We were able to do about
>> >> .5 - 4 kts SOG by the GPS.
>> >>
>> >> With the board down our COG (Course over ground) was 055-057 M
>> >> With the board up out COG was 045-048 M
>> >>
>> >> Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has unknown
>> >> deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has no
>> >> importance
>> >> here. Lowering the board reduced leeway by about 10 degrees.
>> Lowering
>> >> the
>> >> board had no observed effect on SOG although wind variation could have
>> >> hidden a small effect. Based on these results I see no reason to sail
>> >> with
>> >> the board up unless in very thin water and one very good reason to
>> sail
>> >> with
>> >> it down.
>> >>
>> >> David Walker
>> >>
>> >> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>> >>
>> >> Event Specialists
>> >>
>> >> 781-639-2707 Office
>> >> 781-718-8690 Cell
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>> >> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:13 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> David,
>> >>>
>> >>> By "relatively flat" I certainly agree. On close reaches so far I've
>> >>> found
>> >>> that it's easier for me to get in the groove with about a 10-15
>> degree
>> >>> heel,
>> >>> which I consider relatively flat. Anything over that and I most
>> always
>> >>> slow
>> >>> down.
>> >>>
>> >>> Reference your statement that there is no reason (healing, light air,
>> >>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up, does the term "sail
>> on
>> >>> the
>> >>> wind" mean close-hauled or any close reach? With the Rhodes' keel it
>> is
>> >>> obviously able to sail on a close reach without the centerboard down.
>> >>> Many
>> >>> times I've experimented with the board up and down and it always
>> creates
>> >>> enough drag to reduce speed.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't disagree with your statement, "On a run, racing sailors will
>> >>> raise
>> >>> the board to reduce
>> >>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the
>> board
>> >>> and
>> >>> the rudder combine to create directional stability." However, that's
>> >>> all
>> >>> relative too. I typically sail with the board up on a close reach
>> and
>> >>> balance the sails so there's no pressure on the tiller. See picture
>> >>> below
>> >>> (normally I do lock the tiller after balancing the sails). I am
>> anxious
>> >>> to
>> >>> try the board down again. When moving around the boat to get and get
>> >>> rid
>> >>> of
>> >>> beer, stability is sometimes more important than speed.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lee
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> David Walker-19 wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I
>> have
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> make a few comments.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1) The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to
>> sail
>> >>>> relatively flat. This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
>> >>>> surface
>> >>>> and best hull form factor in the water. All heel does is
>> effectively
>> >>>> lower
>> >>>> the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out
>> of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it
>> is
>> >>>> less
>> >>>> effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can stall
>> the
>> >>>> rudder. Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
>> >>>> heeling
>> >>>> because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
>> >>>> waterline length whwn heeling. This usually comes about due to
>> >>>> specific
>> >>>> racing class design formulas.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck apes,
>> b)
>> >>>> reef
>> >>>> sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 2) All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
>> >>>> Water
>> >>>> passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
>> >>>> which
>> >>>> keeps the boat going intoo the wind. The lateral resistance of the
>> >>>> board
>> >>>> is
>> >>>> mimimal compared to the sails. There is no reason (healing, light
>> air,
>> >>>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up. The amount of
>> board
>> >>>> down
>> >>>> can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE
>> (center
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails has
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> board is lowered. On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
>> >>>> reduce
>> >>>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the
>> board
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> the rudder combine to create directional stability.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
>> >>>> "Sail
>> >>>> Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
>> >>>> House.
>> >>>> He
>> >>>> describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail
>> trim
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> all conditions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David Walker
>> >>>>
>> >>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Event Specialists
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>> >>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>> >>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> John,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That makes sense. If the boat normally heels less with the
>> >>>>> centerboard
>> >>>>> up,
>> >>>>> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
>> >>>>> wind.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Lee
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> jlock wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Actually I think it is the opposite. With the board up, a gust
>> will
>> >>>>>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
>> >>>>>> doing so, producing less heel. But with the board down, it will
>> >>>>>> offer
>> >>>>>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle.
>> The
>> >>>>>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Cheers!
>> >>>>>> John Lock
>> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>>>>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>> >>>>>> Lake Sinclair, GA
>> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
>> >>>>>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
>> >>>>>>> somewhere vs a
>> >>>>>>> relaxing time.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
>> >>>>>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
>> >>>>>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
>> >>>>>>> boat will
>> >>>>>>> react and heel much easier.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
>> >>>>>>>> began
>> >>>>>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode. I do not know of anyone who
>> >>>>>>>> would beat
>> >>>>>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
>> >>>>>>>> slippage,
>> >>>>>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of knockdown.
>> I
>> >>>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
>> >>>>>>>> caution,
>> >>>>>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Happy sailing,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Art
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
>> >>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
>> >>>>>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic. Womehow
>> my
>> >>>>>>>>> flawed
>> >>>>>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
>> >>>>>>>>> more and
>> >>>>>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
>> >>>>>>>>> better (i.e.
>> >>>>>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
>> >>>>>>>>> something I will
>> >>>>>>>>> do this week.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Lee!
>> >>>>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the
>> wind
>> >>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>> make
>> >>>>>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will have
>> on
>> >>>>>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway. The board is most
>> useful
>> >>>>>>>>>> if you
>> >>>>>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better headway
>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day.
>> With
>> >>>>>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
>> >>>>>>>>>> from the
>> >>>>>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the
>> time
>> >>>>>>>>>> on broad
>> >>>>>>>>>> reaches and runs. On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow you
>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> turn
>> >>>>>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your slip.
>> I
>> >>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>>>>> use
>> >>>>>>>>>> if for either one.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and
>> down
>> >>>>>>>>>> and it
>> >>>>>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed. I think the term
>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>> VMG
>> >>>>>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
>> >>>>>>>>>> actually
>> >>>>>>>>>> making. If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
>> >>>>>>>>>> sure it
>> >>>>>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in
>> speed
>> >>>>>>>>>> it sure
>> >>>>>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Lee
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lee,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
>> >>>>>>>>>>> suggested,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> but have concerns.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
>> >>>>>>>>>>> tacking
>> >>>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>> up after the tack?
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and all
>> I
>> >>>>>>>>>>> could
>> >>>>>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making headway.
>> In
>> >>>>>>>>>>> essence
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
>> >>>>>>>>>>> anywhere
>> >>>>>>>>>>> soon
>> >>>>>>>>>>> this is all fine.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up. From the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Precisions: 5.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The board
>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> significantly
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> both heel
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions. If I raise the board all
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> way on
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but
>> your
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wife
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> may
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel
>> also.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails. For
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> amount
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast enough
>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll
>> then
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be able
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail
>> out.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> were
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> headsail
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to
>> tack
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> even if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind. Last week I was in a 12 knot
>> wind.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lbs of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up
>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the main
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%. With the boom down I had the same heel with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 100% main.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 80%. If I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for me
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck!
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lee
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind
>> can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> too. The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it wants
>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> push
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> boat
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> away from the tack. One technique that has worked for me
>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger. When you push the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tiller to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lee,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet
>> fly.(for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib) This reduces
>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> drive
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind. Just as the bow comes
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wind,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jib and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> push the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come
>> through
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wind, the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tack. In
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the
>> wind
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> start
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards. In that case as I said in an earlier
>> post,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> shift
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> new tack
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> David Walker
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87 w
>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> struggle
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light
>> winds,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming
>> about.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come about
>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> started.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the
>> letter
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R on
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was down
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just
>> couldn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we
>> just
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>> mailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>> mailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24681160.html
>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>> list
>> >>>>>>>>> go to
>> >>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> go
>> >>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24685194.html
>> >>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> go
>> >>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> go
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> View this message in context:
>> >>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24698152.html
>> >>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>> to
>> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>> to
>> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p24706089/At%2BEase%2Bin%2BMarch%2B012.jpg
>> >>> At+Ease+in+March+012.jpg
>> >>> --
>> >>> View this message in context:
>> >>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24706089.html
>> >>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>> to
>> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >
>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
>> go
>> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>>--
>>View this message in context:
>>http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24819433.html
>>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>>archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>__________________________________________________
>>
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>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>
> __________________________________________________
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>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
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>
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Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:33:18 +0000
From: david.walker5 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
<1055878348-1249443185-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021564327- at bxe1070.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Content-Type: text/plain
Mary Lou,
This whole issue is confusing because lateral reistance of the centerboard or a keel for that matter has a very small effect on leeway. Its the lift created by water flowing past the keel that is the bigger effect. Just like a sail, lift is proportional to the length of the leading edge, not area. That's why racing boats have deep narrow foils for keels.
Dave Walker
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:35:10
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
Ben,
The key to understanding this is the lateral resistance part. The
centerboard resists the boat's tendency to move sideways through the
water due to the pressure of the wind on the sails. If you raise the
centerboard, the resistance to moving sideways decreases. Because the
boat moves sideways to get out of the way of the wind, it doesn't heel as much.
Mary Lou
1991 R22 Fretless
Rock Hall, MD
At 09:48 PM 8/4/2009, you wrote:
>David;
>
>I read the quote three times and I'm still pretty sure I don't get it. In
>fact, I'm very sure I don't get it. I understand it, and I believe it (I
>guess) but I don't get it. My gut tells me the farther down the board is the
>the more resistance to heeling there would be (and my gut is substantial).
>
>I love this thread because there are few people who know less than I do
>about sailing, and this kind of fundamental advice is very helpful. Thanks
>for taking the trouble to post that reference. I need to read it a few more
>times.
>
>BenCittadino
>
>
>
>david.walker5 wrote:
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > Credit where credit is due. I just ran across a reference in a book
> > called
> > "Better Sailing" by Richard Henderson. He also wrote a great book on
> > heavy
> > weather sailing called "Sea Sense". Any way, I quote from the book
> >
> > "...it is not always realized that heeling can be reduced on a boat having
> > an unballasted centerboard by partially raising the board. This raises
> > the
> > center of lateral resistance (CLR), thereby reducing the heeling arm, the
> > vertical distance between the CLR and the center of effort (the geometric
> > center of the sails) ... In heavy weather, centerboardsshould almost never
> > be raised all the way, however, because the boat will generally make too
> > much leeway ar loose directional stability and also because the board acts
> > as a roll damper."
> >
> > I think the key here is the "partially raising the board. Anyway good
> > observation. If leeway is not a concern, raising the board can reduce
> > heeling.
> >
> >
> > David Walker
> >
> > www.davidwalkerphotography.com
> >
> > Event Specialists
> >
> > 781-639-2707 Office
> > 781-718-8690 Cell
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim and Leeway
> >
> >
> >> Yesterday I got the chance to sail in 5-10 kt wind and relatively flat
> >> water. I set the boat up on a beam reach (apparent wind 90 degreees).
> >> The
> >> course was was 060 M by my steering compass. We were able to do about
> >> .5 - 4 kts SOG by the GPS.
> >>
> >> With the board down our COG (Course over ground) was 055-057 M
> >> With the board up out COG was 045-048 M
> >>
> >> Although my steering compass is not compensated and thus has unknown
> >> deviation, since it was held steady at 060 the deviation has no
> >> importance
> >> here. Lowering the board reduced leeway by about 10 degrees. Lowering
> >> the
> >> board had no observed effect on SOG although wind variation could have
> >> hidden a small effect. Based on these results I see no reason to sail
> >> with
> >> the board up unless in very thin water and one very good reason to sail
> >> with
> >> it down.
> >>
> >> David Walker
> >>
> >> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
> >>
> >> Event Specialists
> >>
> >> 781-639-2707 Office
> >> 781-718-8690 Cell
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
> >> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:13 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> David,
> >>>
> >>> By "relatively flat" I certainly agree. On close reaches so far I've
> >>> found
> >>> that it's easier for me to get in the groove with about a 10-15 degree
> >>> heel,
> >>> which I consider relatively flat. Anything over that and I most always
> >>> slow
> >>> down.
> >>>
> >>> Reference your statement that there is no reason (healing, light air,
> >>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up, does the term "sail on
> >>> the
> >>> wind" mean close-hauled or any close reach? With the Rhodes' keel it is
> >>> obviously able to sail on a close reach without the centerboard down.
> >>> Many
> >>> times I've experimented with the board up and down and it always creates
> >>> enough drag to reduce speed.
> >>>
> >>> I don't disagree with your statement, "On a run, racing sailors will
> >>> raise
> >>> the board to reduce
> >>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the board
> >>> and
> >>> the rudder combine to create directional stability." However, that's
> >>> all
> >>> relative too. I typically sail with the board up on a close reach and
> >>> balance the sails so there's no pressure on the tiller. See picture
> >>> below
> >>> (normally I do lock the tiller after balancing the sails). I am anxious
> >>> to
> >>> try the board down again. When moving around the boat to get and get
> >>> rid
> >>> of
> >>> beer, stability is sometimes more important than speed.
> >>>
> >>> Lee
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> David Walker-19 wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I have
> >>>> to
> >>>> make a few comments.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to sail
> >>>> relatively flat. This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
> >>>> surface
> >>>> and best hull form factor in the water. All heel does is effectively
> >>>> lower
> >>>> the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out of
> >>>> the
> >>>> water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it is
> >>>> less
> >>>> effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can stall the
> >>>> rudder. Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
> >>>> heeling
> >>>> because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
> >>>> waterline length whwn heeling. This usually comes about due to
> >>>> specific
> >>>> racing class design formulas.
> >>>>
> >>>> All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck apes, b)
> >>>> reef
> >>>> sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
> >>>> Water
> >>>> passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
> >>>> which
> >>>> keeps the boat going intoo the wind. The lateral resistance of the
> >>>> board
> >>>> is
> >>>> mimimal compared to the sails. There is no reason (healing, light air,
> >>>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up. The amount of board
> >>>> down
> >>>> can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE (center
> >>>> of
> >>>> effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails has
> >>>> the
> >>>> board is lowered. On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
> >>>> reduce
> >>>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the board
> >>>> and
> >>>> the rudder combine to create directional stability.
> >>>>
> >>>> For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
> >>>> "Sail
> >>>> Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
> >>>> House.
> >>>> He
> >>>> describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail trim
> >>>> for
> >>>> all conditions.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> David Walker
> >>>>
> >>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Event Specialists
> >>>>
> >>>> 781-639-2707 Office
> >>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
> >>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That makes sense. If the boat normally heels less with the
> >>>>> centerboard
> >>>>> up,
> >>>>> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
> >>>>> wind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lee
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> jlock wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Actually I think it is the opposite. With the board up, a gust will
> >>>>>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
> >>>>>> doing so, producing less heel. But with the board down, it will
> >>>>>> offer
> >>>>>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle. The
> >>>>>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers!
> >>>>>> John Lock
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
> >>>>>> Lake Sinclair, GA
> >>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
> >>>>>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
> >>>>>>> somewhere vs a
> >>>>>>> relaxing time.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
> >>>>>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
> >>>>>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
> >>>>>>> boat will
> >>>>>>> react and heel much easier.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
> >>>>>>>> began
> >>>>>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode. I do not know of anyone who
> >>>>>>>> would beat
> >>>>>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
> >>>>>>>> slippage,
> >>>>>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of knockdown. I
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
> >>>>>>>> caution,
> >>>>>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Happy sailing,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Art
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
> >>>>>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic. Womehow my
> >>>>>>>>> flawed
> >>>>>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
> >>>>>>>>> more and
> >>>>>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
> >>>>>>>>> better (i.e.
> >>>>>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
> >>>>>>>>> something I will
> >>>>>>>>> do this week.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Lee!
> >>>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the wind
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> make
> >>>>>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will have on
> >>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway. The board is most useful
> >>>>>>>>>> if you
> >>>>>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better headway is
> >>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day. With
> >>>>>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
> >>>>>>>>>> from the
> >>>>>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the time
> >>>>>>>>>> on broad
> >>>>>>>>>> reaches and runs. On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow you to
> >>>>>>>>>> turn
> >>>>>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your slip. I
> >>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>>> if for either one.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and down
> >>>>>>>>>> and it
> >>>>>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed. I think the term is
> >>>>>>>>>> VMG
> >>>>>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
> >>>>>>>>>> actually
> >>>>>>>>>> making. If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
> >>>>>>>>>> sure it
> >>>>>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in speed
> >>>>>>>>>> it sure
> >>>>>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Lee
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lee,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
> >>>>>>>>>>> suggested,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but have concerns.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
> >>>>>>>>>>> tacking
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> up after the tack?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and all I
> >>>>>>>>>>> could
> >>>>>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making headway. In
> >>>>>>>>>>> essence
> >>>>>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when the
> >>>>>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
> >>>>>>>>>>> anywhere
> >>>>>>>>>>> soon
> >>>>>>>>>>> this is all fine.
> >>>>>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
> >>>>>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up. From the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Precisions: 5.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The board is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>> significantly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
> >>>>>>>>>>>> both heel
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions. If I raise the board all the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> way on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but your
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wife
> >>>>>>>>>>>> may
> >>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel also.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails. For
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> amount
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast enough to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll then
> >>>>>>>>>>>> be able
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail out.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
> >>>>>>>>>>>> headsail
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to tack
> >>>>>>>>>>>> even if
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind. Last week I was in a 12 knot wind.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lbs of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rail
> >>>>>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the main
> >>>>>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%. With the boom down I had the same heel with
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 100% main.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 80%. If I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for me
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lee
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> too. The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it wants to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> push
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> boat
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> away from the tack. One technique that has worked for me is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger. When you push the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tiller to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lee,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet fly.(for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib) This reduces the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> drive
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind. Just as the bow comes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wind,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jib and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> push the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come through
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wind, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tack. In
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the wind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> start
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards. In that case as I said in an earlier post,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> shift
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> new tack
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> David Walker
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87 w a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> struggle
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light winds,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming about.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come about is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> started.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the letter
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was down
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just couldn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24681160.html
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> go to
> >>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24685194.html
> >>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24698152.html
> >>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p24706089/At%2BEase%2Bin%2BMarch%2B012.jpg
> >>> At+Ease+in+March+012.jpg
> >>> --
> >>> View this message in context:
> >>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24706089.html
> >>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> >
> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24819433.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.43/2281 - Release Date:
>08/04/09 05:57:00
__________________________________________________
To subscribe/unsubscribe go to http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
__________________________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 07:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mike Cheung <mikecheung at att.net>
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Water tanks .... was .... Re: Michigan
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <24827803.post at talk.nabble.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Bob,
I bit the bullet and just replaced my Rubbermaid "water tank" with a real
polyethylene marine water tank. It holds a little less, 13 gal vs. probably
16 gal, but doesn't leak at all. The replacement was straightforward and
now I don't get any water in my bilge from overfilling the water tank.
Also, while I was in there I replaced the fill line as it was pretty slimy
inside. It was a white plastic line originally. I replaced it with clear
tubing, probably PVC, so I can eyeball it now and again to be sure it stays
clean.
Mike Cheung
s/v Muireann 1993/2008 R22
Bob Keller wrote:
>
>
> Rick,
>
> I tries exactly the same thing with my plastic Rubbermaid water tank. I
> put silicone sealant all around and then screwed the lid back on. It
> still leaks. Any other ideas?
>
> Bob K
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:17:59 -0400
>> From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Michigan
>>
>> Although the newer tanks vent to the outside, for many years they have
>> actually been plastic tubs with a sealed lid. In my case, screen door
>> screws were all that were used to seal the lid which is very convenient
>> for
>> cleaning and sponging dry for the winter. However, a full tub still
>> leaked
>> over the top when the boat heeled until I made a silicone sealant gasket
>> inside the lid.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Mary Lou Troy <mtroy at atlanticbb.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Roger's boat was from the 70s and he was constantly making changes
>> > and improvements. Like many other things on the Rhodes 22, I suspect
>> > that water tanks vary all over the place.
>> >
>> > Mary Lou
>> > 1991 R22 Fretless
>> > Rock Hall, MD
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 06:01 PM 8/3/2009, you wrote:
>> >
>> > >Mary Lou:
>> > >
>> > >Thank you for the link to Roger's account. I enjoyed reading his
>> story.
>> > I
>> > >agree with Al that the Rhodes 22 is probably better suited for Lake
>> > >Charlevoix rather than the extreme weather that can be encountered on
>> Lake
>> > >Michigan.
>> > >
>> > >I notice that Roger notes the bildge had about 5 gallons of water
>> mostly
>> > >from his neglect to close the vent on his fresh water tank. Is this a
>> > >common practice, to close the fresh water vent? I think my holding
>> tank
>> > and
>> > >fresh water tank both vent to the outside so this shouldn't be a
>> problem?
>> > >Maybe Roger has a different set up?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Mary Lou Troy-2 wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > There is an account of Roger Pihlaja's trip to Garden Island and
>> > > > Beaver Island in his Rhodes 22 in the old Rhodes FAQ here:
>> > > > http://www.geocities.com/blew_skies/gardeni.html
>> > > >
>> > > > Note that Roger is a fine sailor and outdoorsman. He also used
>> > > > regularly post accounts of winter camping trips with his sons.
>> > > >
>> > > > Mary Lou
>> > > > 1991 R22 Fretless
>> > > > Rock Hall, MD
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > At 12:58 AM 8/3/2009, you wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >>Cowie,
>> > > >>Several years ago I sailed with my son on our 32-footer from
>> > > >>Traverse City to Charlevoix, MackinacIsland, then down to Beaver
>> > > >>Island, back to Charlevoix and its long lake. I wouldn't do it on
>> > > >>our Rhodes 22 because the waves can build up to 6 ft. even in the
>> > > >>best weather, I suppose due to thelong fetch. I think Charlevoix
>> > > >>Lake would be quite nice for your R 22, as well as maybe the two
>> > > >>Traverse City Bays.
>> > > >>Al Keblinskas
>> > > >>
>> > > >> > Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 19:20:56 -0700
>> > > >> > From: ccowie at cowieassociates.com
>> > > >> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > > >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Michigan
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Have any rhodies sailed to beaver island, makinaw, north
>> > > >> channell? Are these
>> > > >> > areas to challengng for a r22? I live in Washington dc but have
>> > spent
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> > last 25 summer.vacations in charleviox mi and may eventualy
>> trailer
>> > my
>> > > >> boat
>> > > >> > from the Chesapeake to michigan.
>> > > >> > --
>> > > >> > View this message in context:
>> > > >> http://www.nabble.com/Michigan-tp24784418p24784418.html
>> > > >> > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > __________________________________________________
>> > > >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>> > > >> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > > >> > __________________________________________________
>> > > >>
>> > > >>_________________________________________________________________
>> > > >>Get your vacation photos on your phone!
>> > > >>
>> >
>> http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM
>> > > >>__________________________________________________
>> > > >>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>> > > >>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > > >>__________________________________________________
>> > > >>
>> > > >>No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > > >>Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.41/2277 - Release Date:
>> > > >>08/02/09 05:56:00
>> > > >
>> > > > __________________________________________________
>> > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> > > > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> > > >
>> > > > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> archives
>> > go
>> > > > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > > > __________________________________________________
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >View this message in context:
>> > >http://www.nabble.com/Michigan-tp24784418p24798931.html
>> > >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> > >
>> > >__________________________________________________
>> > >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> > >http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> > >
>> > >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>> > >archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >__________________________________________________
>> > >
>> > >No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > >Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.41/2277 - Release Date:
>> > >08/02/09 05:56:00
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >
>> > For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
>> go
>> > to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > __________________________________________________
>> >
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get free photo software from Windows Live
> http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
>
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Michigan-tp24784418p24827803.html
Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 10:13:26 -0400
From: Joe Babb <joe.babb at comcast.net>
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] water in the laz
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <4A799386.20704 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello All,
I've written to Stan about this, but either my email got lost, didn't
get through, he's still having trouble with comcast, or he's busy making
boats.
I'm hoping you have a recommendation for my latest problem. I have
attached a couple of jpegs of the interior of the laz.
The boat is sitting on the trailer at an angle with the stern downhill.
If you look in laz_1.jpg you can see I've circled the through hull of
the cockpit drain. It looked for all the world like water was seeping
out around the through hull. It trickled down and puddled in the aft
part of the laz. But there was no water in the cockpit so it wasn't
leaking around the hose. I kept sponging it up each day and next day
more would appear. The boat is covered, by the way so it wasn't from rain.
I finally took a video camera and looked under the cabin sole down along
the centerboard and could see a puddle of water at the end. So the
water is seeping ever so slowly under the cockpit floor and coming out
around the through hull into the laz.
First question is: Should I worry about this? It is an aggravation
because I don't like water standing in the laz to create mold and also
the paint in the laz is peeling as you can see in the photo. I am a
little concerned about water staying between the cockpit and hull. I'm
guessing there is floatation under the cockpit floor.
Next question is: What should I do? In Laz_2.jpg you hopefully can see
that there appears to be no opening at the base of the cockpit. The
base of the cockpit is glassed to the floor of the laz. I have heard
from the list that in older boats the laz was open to underneath the
cockpit floor. Was this boat modified?
I can see a leftover washer through some of the resin. Makes me wonder
about the work. I've heard of people glassing up the openings between
the cockpit and laz and cabin. Should I drill a hole just under the
cockpit floor to let the water out more quickly? Should I leave it
alone and live with it? Seeing water seep from around the throughhull
makes me worry about the integrity of the throughhull although I don't
see any seepage when we are in the water.
Joe
"Harmony" 2000 recycled 2008
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:16:52 -0400
From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Now comes General Boats
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID: <40D1A23DD73C478EBF021C97D9C2AB96 at rhodes>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
This paper on Loyalty/Royalty is apart from the ongoing GB vs. Art C. battle, having only been joined to that complaint because Art, while purporting to support GB, has, in the matter of Loyalty/Royalty, rejected the GB proposal in his own multiple Rhodes buying and selling. It is hoped that airing the Loyalty/Royalty tender might end the myopic rational that it is crazy for GB expecting anything from the sales and purchases of Rhodes that GB had nothing to do with. The factual truth is there are no Rhodes sales that GB has nothing to do with: Rick's 7/26 5:28PM e-mail supports that position at one end of the debate (how the private seller volunteered GB's time to clinch this private Rhodes purchase decision); to David Culp's 7/26 4:49 PM e-mail at the other end of the debate (re the high value of Rhodes re-sales). For Ben's, Joe's, John's and all others' academic Loyalty/Royalty questions, here is the logic to consider.
When sane folks, who haven't thought it through, laugh at GB's crazed Loyalty/Royalty notion, I think of the Marx Brothers' movie where Groucho is reviewing a contract where Chico is applying for a loan and Groucho says, "You have to sign the sanity clause" and Chico laughs and says, "Everyone knows there is no Sanity Claus". There is no authority to the Loyalty/Royalty clause that we ask you to incorporate when buying or selling a Rhodes 22 Sailboat - it is purely voluntary. But, the win, win, win logic of the value added for all three parties, is overwhelming, as this brief will argue.
1. Boat Show goers fall in love with the Rhodes - but one of the biggest drags on a "yes" from wannabes has been, "Am I buying from a company that will still be around next year?" Many current Rhodies let us know that they share that concern of who is going to back up their boat's welfare if GB's welfare is being allowed to deteriorate. This decision-contributor is one of several you have to join in any conclusion re GB's Loyalty/Royalty proposal.
2, General Boats builds a single boat. In this business the money is in the big boats. Accordingly the business plan of almost all other builders is to offer an entry level boat at the lowest selling price possible (even a loss) to get new sailors' brand loyalty and then walk them up the size line. The Rhodes business plan, for better or worse, is just the opposite. We do not continually walk around our boat seeing how we can save a nickel - we walk around the Rhodes and see how spending an extra dollar will make an even better boat. It is this not-continually-coming-out-with-a-cheaper-boat, but continually offering a better boat, that keeps getting Rhodes, which does not advertise, featured in so may publications that thrive off advertising. August "Sailing" is just one more recognition of "what we do". Invariably publications deal with us before an article decision and invariably we point out to them that we do not advertise so they should not risk the wrat!
h of competitive boat builder who do. And invariably their response is that their readers have a right to know. If you buy or sell a Rhodes privately, insisting to yourself that GB had nothing to do with it, so warrants nothing, you are diluting the facts and deluding yourself.
3. The Rhodes 22 is the beginning and the end of the GB line. We have no more profitable size to move you up to. Nor is your buying a Rhodes like buying a car that you periodically do many times in a lifetime and so provide the seller many sales to amortize the costs of winning you over as a customer - only a handful of Rhodies have opted for their second Rhodes in one lifetime.
The effort/time/mail/phone/e-mails/visits/demos/etc. wooing our buyers, are not spread over multiple or moving up sales. In a fiscal period all these expenses must be born by the few new boat sales and the many used boat sales these expenses make possible. So, at least in GB's business scope, Rick's comfort-accounting reasoning for panning GB's position on the responsibility of private sales, does not hold water.
4. Why, at the start of GB's second 50 years, the Loyalty/Royalty program? We will spare you our political explanation, which is irrefutable, and simplify the reason with two words: Oil, and a nameless second word to avoid diversion. Boats are built of oil. When we started gas was 26 cents a gallon and we sold boats for $2,500 to firemen and policemen, teachers and auto workers: providing a large middle class base. My daughter (the writer) had no time to go to the bathroom, she was so busy taking deposits at the Mt. Clemens (Detroit) boat show.
When inflation raised the cost a bit, our base shrank a bit, to business men and bookies. When inflation continued, and at an increasing rate, we sold to doctors and lawyers; a shrinking base. And, when inflation really took over, sales were restricted to a handful of Arabian Sheiks. We had to do something - and we did: Selling used Rhodes.
Recycled Rhodes saved the day for GB while we watched the Gulf Stars and Bristols, Allied Yachts, Marshals (who was an overnight guest at our home, and then killed himself), O'Days, Sovereigns, Irwins, Nimbles, Starwinds, Balboas, Windstars, Tanzers (whose plant we now occupy), Grampians and an amazing number of small and big builders in the US and Canada and around the World, who started the same time we did, go out of business. And we watched the value of these builders' used boats plummet in the surviving market. In contrast, the private sales of Rhodes became, and remain, easy. And used Rhodes values keep rising. But Art, and his co-thinking Rhodes-buying-and-selling crowd, cling to their self-serving myth that, in their particular instances, GB has nothing to do with their buying and selling successes.
The issue may be better framed by the answer to the question: "Why does a surviving company like Macgregor, who builds a single model, not need customer support? You may be interested in the answer but, you do not want GB to do what Macgregor does. When used boats begin to impinge on Macgregor's new boat sales and dealer channels clog up, Roger simply stops production of that boat and comes out with a different boat. If you owned a Venture 17 or 21 or 22 or 23 or his cat or one of the many versions of the Macgregor 25 and 26 (Roger even changes the name of his boats), you have seen the price of your discontinued model drop, sometimes even before your classified hits the streets. (And what are the chances of the next owner of one of these discontinued brands, getting a replacement for that lost cast iron swing keel.)
5. The nature of business (and life) is "change". The battle over government Health Care today is no different than the battles over government Social Security, government Medicare and government Unemployment Insurance, were yesterday. Today they are all accepted as American way-to-go programs. "What is good for General Motors is good for America" was the slogan in my early business days. If GM ever entertained the idea that used car sales might be indebted to the parent company, they did so too late. Changing times morph current traditions into new traditions, when times call for it . Today's economy evolution rubs it under our nose that boat builders need to join already sanctioned residual supported industries - if we want to hold onto the wonderful variety of selections having many small builders offers. The news today tells of newspapers and wire services turning to digital coding technology to fight off dinosaurian extinction by asking royalties from other !
media who freely lift news companies' expensively gathered information. No one is expecting you to feel for poor old GB - you should be thinking what is good for you. And what is good for you is what is good for General Boats. Take it from the old man - flexible thinking keeps you enduringly relevant. A hollow sounding idea today can make solid sense tomorrow.
Consider the Chicago Boat Show as an example of changing times. This year, for the first time since the Boat Show's start at the Chicago Stock Yards where, "we were there", we did not go. It is not that there were no Rhodes sales made at the last few Chicago Shows - there were. But they were made by private buyers and sellers - sales where not one cent went to GB to pay costs for bringing show boats all the way to Chicago, paying for the 5 days rental of Navy Pier space, for parking, manpower and the tabs for eating and sleeping in Chicago and the pleasure of doing it all in freezing winter winds. "You can see the boat at the show, the salesman is great, he will take as much time as you need to show you all the features and answer all your questions and give you a great booklet to take with you - and then you can buy my Rhodes." Loyalty/Royalty would have gone a long way to keeping this show on GB's itinerary. A few Chicago buyers and sellers did get our messag!
e and earned our loyalty for denting our costs. But there are limits to the shortfalls our Social Security checks can cover.
We appreciate suggestions such as yearly dues but feel this one would prove a burden for owners. We have given much thought to Saving Private Sales and Saving General Boats and note that when we buy something, the sales person then wants to sell us a back-up policy. My reaction is to decline on the grounds that if the item is new and guaranteed, why would I need any additional support. But re-sale items are another animal. Very little of GB's time seems to be taken by new boat buyers. But private re-sales buyers are turning GB into a full time not-for-profit organization. When we negotiate with a new contractor and feel the product or service has been under priced, we offer to pay more because we do not want to lose a source in the middle of a season. I guess this is the real thesis of this paper.
Unless anyone has a better idea we think the solution is a charge each time a title is transferred. A sort of sales tax, if you want to view it in that light, or as though it were a restrictive clause that survives a house sale or a broker's commission that repeats every time the agent re-sells that particular house, or a residual when new viewers see a re-run. No matter the rational, the bottom line is that it becomes a powerful tool for the SELLER of his or her boat: " When you buy my boat the builder is going to continue to give you, the new owner, ongoing support to your questions and parts that you may one day need and even help you when you want to sell your boat." We think this a tremendous selling pull - to which we can add a push on the buying side: "Ask the person selling you this particular Rhodes if they are on board with GB's voluntary re-sale terms. If your seller tells you they are, then make sure the seller gives you their numbered Loyalty/Ro!
yalty certificate. If your seller tells you that they are not going along with GB's voluntary private re-sale program and you buy their boat anyway, then you have to understand that it is only fair and reasonable that GB will not be giving you its time and attention at the expense of all those sellers and buyers who are providing ongoing support to keeping General Boats a capable, vital, operating company.
We have field tested this idea and the results have been encouraging. A few sellers have told us we must be nuts. But many appreciated the mutual advantages. One seller, who told us to our face where to go with this radical idea, later sent us a letter, with a check in it, saying that he had thought it over and came to understand that the reasoning was exactly correct.
IN CONCLUSION
We understand that those of you who have not been in business for yourself, may not be cognizant of the endless vacuum crevices in every business, sucking out the dollars generated by trying to stay on the business cash flow treadmill. Just a small example: Can you imagine that GB pays a "personal property tax" on its cars and also pays a "personal Business property tax" on the same cars: (The tax title alone is idiotic.) Added to the standard business cash sucking faults, GB has the burden of the ever growing private sales market: "I am thinking of buying Joe Blow's boat. Can you tell me the hull number? Can you look up and get me the prior owner? Can you check your records to see it there were any problems with this boat? He is asking $X dollars, do you think that is a fair price?" And sellers: "I'm thinking of selling my boat. It's an 88. Here is a list of the items it has. What do you think would be a good price. Oh, yea, I need one of those thi!
ngs for the boom. Can you get it out to me next day - I have some lookers coming from SC."
For those who still believe GB no way contributes to every privately sold Rhodes; For those who believe. "sure, GB dollars and time make private sales possible but it should be a free-be that goes with the territory"' ; For those who believe GB can survive such free-bes by simply making it an accounting entry - we invite you to sit in this chair for just one day. After all, we are all in the same boat ! (I just couldn't resist.)
ss
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 08:55:05 -0600
From: Scott Badley <SBadley at sheridanwy.net>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Now comes General Boats
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Message-ID:
<C918FDB3C58E0240952B143F2ADB62D90CDD0BFB0C at exchange01.sheridanwy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Stan,
Does this mean on a private sale you expect 5% from the seller and another 5% from the buyer for 10% of the selling price? If the seller doesn't do their part but the buyer did 10% would the GB support be offered?
I am new to the Rhodes want to be owners list and would like clarification. Your points are well taken.
Scott Badley
WYO Sailer
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of stan
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:17 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Now comes General Boats
This paper on Loyalty/Royalty is apart from the ongoing GB vs. Art C. battle, having only been joined to that complaint because Art, while purporting to support GB, has, in the matter of Loyalty/Royalty, rejected the GB proposal in his own multiple Rhodes buying and selling. It is hoped that airing the Loyalty/Royalty tender might end the myopic rational that it is crazy for GB expecting anything from the sales and purchases of Rhodes that GB had nothing to do with. The factual truth is there are no Rhodes sales that GB has nothing to do with: Rick's 7/26 5:28PM e-mail supports that position at one end of the debate (how the private seller volunteered GB's time to clinch this private Rhodes purchase decision); to David Culp's 7/26 4:49 PM e-mail at the other end of the debate (re the high value of Rhodes re-sales). For Ben's, Joe's, John's and all others' academic Loyalty/Royalty questions, here is the logic to consider.
When sane folks, who haven't thought it through, laugh at GB's crazed Loyalty/Royalty notion, I think of the Marx Brothers' movie where Groucho is reviewing a contract where Chico is applying for a loan and Groucho says, "You have to sign the sanity clause" and Chico laughs and says, "Everyone knows there is no Sanity Claus". There is no authority to the Loyalty/Royalty clause that we ask you to incorporate when buying or selling a Rhodes 22 Sailboat - it is purely voluntary. But, the win, win, win logic of the value added for all three parties, is overwhelming, as this brief will argue.
1. Boat Show goers fall in love with the Rhodes - but one of the biggest drags on a "yes" from wannabes has been, "Am I buying from a company that will still be around next year?" Many current Rhodies let us know that they share that concern of who is going to back up their boat's welfare if GB's welfare is being allowed to deteriorate. This decision-contributor is one of several you have to join in any conclusion re GB's Loyalty/Royalty proposal.
2, General Boats builds a single boat. In this business the money is in the big boats. Accordingly the business plan of almost all other builders is to offer an entry level boat at the lowest selling price possible (even a loss) to get new sailors' brand loyalty and then walk them up the size line. The Rhodes business plan, for better or worse, is just the opposite. We do not continually walk around our boat seeing how we can save a nickel - we walk around the Rhodes and see how spending an extra dollar will make an even better boat. It is this not-continually-coming-out-with-a-cheaper-boat, but continually offering a better boat, that keeps getting Rhodes, which does not advertise, featured in so may publications that thrive off advertising. August "Sailing" is just one more recognition of "what we do". Invariably publications deal with us before an article decision and invariably we point out to them that we do not advertise so they should not risk the wrat!
h of competitive boat builder who do. And invariably their response is that their readers have a right to know. If you buy or sell a Rhodes privately, insisting to yourself that GB had nothing to do with it, so warrants nothing, you are diluting the facts and deluding yourself.
3. The Rhodes 22 is the beginning and the end of the GB line. We have no more profitable size to move you up to. Nor is your buying a Rhodes like buying a car that you periodically do many times in a lifetime and so provide the seller many sales to amortize the costs of winning you over as a customer - only a handful of Rhodies have opted for their second Rhodes in one lifetime.
The effort/time/mail/phone/e-mails/visits/demos/etc. wooing our buyers, are not spread over multiple or moving up sales. In a fiscal period all these expenses must be born by the few new boat sales and the many used boat sales these expenses make possible. So, at least in GB's business scope, Rick's comfort-accounting reasoning for panning GB's position on the responsibility of private sales, does not hold water.
4. Why, at the start of GB's second 50 years, the Loyalty/Royalty program? We will spare you our political explanation, which is irrefutable, and simplify the reason with two words: Oil, and a nameless second word to avoid diversion. Boats are built of oil. When we started gas was 26 cents a gallon and we sold boats for $2,500 to firemen and policemen, teachers and auto workers: providing a large middle class base. My daughter (the writer) had no time to go to the bathroom, she was so busy taking deposits at the Mt. Clemens (Detroit) boat show.
When inflation raised the cost a bit, our base shrank a bit, to business men and bookies. When inflation continued, and at an increasing rate, we sold to doctors and lawyers; a shrinking base. And, when inflation really took over, sales were restricted to a handful of Arabian Sheiks. We had to do something - and we did: Selling used Rhodes.
Recycled Rhodes saved the day for GB while we watched the Gulf Stars and Bristols, Allied Yachts, Marshals (who was an overnight guest at our home, and then killed himself), O'Days, Sovereigns, Irwins, Nimbles, Starwinds, Balboas, Windstars, Tanzers (whose plant we now occupy), Grampians and an amazing number of small and big builders in the US and Canada and around the World, who started the same time we did, go out of business. And we watched the value of these builders' used boats plummet in the surviving market. In contrast, the private sales of Rhodes became, and remain, easy. And used Rhodes values keep rising. But Art, and his co-thinking Rhodes-buying-and-selling crowd, cling to their self-serving myth that, in their particular instances, GB has nothing to do with their buying and selling successes.
The issue may be better framed by the answer to the question: "Why does a surviving company like Macgregor, who builds a single model, not need customer support? You may be interested in the answer but, you do not want GB to do what Macgregor does. When used boats begin to impinge on Macgregor's new boat sales and dealer channels clog up, Roger simply stops production of that boat and comes out with a different boat. If you owned a Venture 17 or 21 or 22 or 23 or his cat or one of the many versions of the Macgregor 25 and 26 (Roger even changes the name of his boats), you have seen the price of your discontinued model drop, sometimes even before your classified hits the streets. (And what are the chances of the next owner of one of these discontinued brands, getting a replacement for that lost cast iron swing keel.)
5. The nature of business (and life) is "change". The battle over government Health Care today is no different than the battles over government Social Security, government Medicare and government Unemployment Insurance, were yesterday. Today they are all accepted as American way-to-go programs. "What is good for General Motors is good for America" was the slogan in my early business days. If GM ever entertained the idea that used car sales might be indebted to the parent company, they did so too late. Changing times morph current traditions into new traditions, when times call for it . Today's economy evolution rubs it under our nose that boat builders need to join already sanctioned residual supported industries - if we want to hold onto the wonderful variety of selections having many small builders offers. The news today tells of newspapers and wire services turning to digital coding technology to fight off dinosaurian extinction by asking royalties from other !
media who freely lift news companies' expensively gathered information. No one is expecting you to feel for poor old GB - you should be thinking what is good for you. And what is good for you is what is good for General Boats. Take it from the old man - flexible thinking keeps you enduringly relevant. A hollow sounding idea today can make solid sense tomorrow.
Consider the Chicago Boat Show as an example of changing times. This year, for the first time since the Boat Show's start at the Chicago Stock Yards where, "we were there", we did not go. It is not that there were no Rhodes sales made at the last few Chicago Shows - there were. But they were made by private buyers and sellers - sales where not one cent went to GB to pay costs for bringing show boats all the way to Chicago, paying for the 5 days rental of Navy Pier space, for parking,
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