[Rhodes22-list] General Boats (Rose & Stan's) position paper

[Jeff Kantor]

How about a race instead of a gunfight!  Nice, non violent way to handle aggression.  Could be the start of a new one-class series.   Racing advances the breed.  Also might be the opportune moment to roll out that super light RR22 (Racing Rhodes 22).

 Regards,
Jeff Kantor
c. 917.825.5380
sirius1 at canusmajor.com





________________________________
From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 12:15:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] General Boats (Rose & Stan's) position paper

Stan,

Who is making bullets for the shoot out--you or Art?

Rick

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 11:54 AM, stan <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:

> Rhodies All:
>
> Thanks for re-visiting this topic - and opening the door for GB to re-visit
> it:
>
> 1.    As to the question of who owns the List, there is no question:  It
> belongs to all Rhodes owners, not to General Boats.  The real question is
> "The relationship between GB and the List".
>
>    Analogous to the "Right to Choose/Pro Life" issue, the history of the
> Shakers' religion parallels the facts-of-life reality that the List's
> continuity vitality is tied to the health of GB.  (I think Allen Greenspan
> said that.)   Yearly exposure at Annapolis and shows all over the country,
> magazine and book articles, an internet number one rating, a living entity
> to go to for a mast, cb or pop top replacement; 99% of the unusually
> brilliant characters collection of Rhodies get the value of the GB/List
> connection.   For the 1% who can not get it, the argument is that, as owner
> of more Rhodes 22s (at least in this economic climate) than anyone else on
> the List, as GB CEO, I claim a right to add my two, no make that four,
> cents
> when the topic and spirits move me.
>
>
> 2.    As to what subjects can be brought up on the List, my 4 votes, OK
> make
> that one vote if we are playing by my party's democratic
> enlightened-capitalism ideals, have been and continue to be, there should
> be
> no limits   The List's history shows that most losers self-remove, given
> enough rope.
>
>
> 3     As to the issue of General Boat's claim to residuals that, in spite
> of
> the List's past posted logic, still strikes some of you on the List as
> "insane", there now is in place a working solution (based on List input) in
> the Numbered Support Certificate program:  A win, win, win for "Used"
> Rhodes
> buyers, sellers and your builder.  All come away from private re-sales with
> a pay-off that those who do not take advantage of this voluntary public
> option fail to have broadened their focus to understand.
>
>
> 4.    As to entrepreneurial Rhodes owners, we support their efforts and
> have
> directed endless new owners to the services they can get from "in-business"
> Rhodies and other parts manufacturers.   We do have one issue in this
> theatre and it makes our blood boil because we did not see it coming and do
> not deserve it and that is our last numbered 5 "As to".   It starts off
> being destructive but ends up with a productive resolution, so bear with
> your company if you value its state of mind.
>
>
> 5.    As to General Boats being pissed off with Art:   In keeping with our
> encouraging young entrepreneurs, when Art expressed an interest in making
> boom rooms, since the ones we were having made were so costly, we
> encouraged
> him by letting him use the plant's facilities and overhead, stay at the
> plant's guest room and criticizing the design's evolution - it was to be a
> joint venture.  When the boom room was ready to show we went to the
> difficulty and expense of getting a second in-water spot at Annapolis.
>  That
> bill came in for even more since it turned out that Art had unilaterally
> decided to use the slip space for an additional day more then we had
> contracted for.   It should have been our first omen but we glossed over
> it - it would be a business expense that the new boom room business would
> be
> paying for.  A few orders came in and Art dutifully sent GB a commission.
> A commission?   We though this a business venture.  This should have been
> our second notice that this was not going the way we envisioned it but in
> the scheme of GB's business it was a small item and we had more pressing
> matters.   OK, we will settle for his royalty idea.   But, if we were not
> to
> share in the profits, then it is Art's business and he should be paying for
> his business costs, like show space.  Those who know Art better may not
> have
> been surprised by his response that our investments were gifts.  (This was
> beginning to sound like a Judge Judy case.)   Noticing a lot of boom room
> activity on the List, we asked Art if our payments were up to date.   He
> informed us that we were out and that we had agreed to be out.  Shocking
> news that started a slow burn.   Pouring more fuel on our growing flame, he
> announced to the List that he would also be supplying Pop Top Enclosures,
> an
> item that was not in the Art/GB business plan and an item we have a large
> inventory of sitting at the plant.
>
>    I like to like all Rhodes owners, even Rummy, and I did like Art before
> contacting his disingenuous side, so I have a suggested solution that can
> get us back to square one and in line with the argument in "As to" number
> one:
>
> a)    Art continues his Boom Room business and reimburses General Boats for
> its monies laid out for his business and has commissions brought up to date
> and forthcoming on future sales.
>
> b)    Art agrees that, supporting his claims of supporting the welfare of
> General Boats, he will not build or sell Rhodes pop top enclosures or,
> alternatively, will contract with GB to make pop top enclosures exclusively
> for General Boats.
>
> c)    Art, whose claim for sympathy is that he has made an investment in
> equipment for his sewing business, contracts to sew interior and exterior
> cushion covers sets for GB where General Boats will supply the fabric and
> General Boats will use its own in-plant cut to shape foam to install in
> said
> contracted covers.
>
> d)    With a working agreement that Art will stay with, and the supply to
> GB
> of products that meet GB's high standards, General Boats will have no
> objection to Art manufacturing and selling-direct, other boat items from
> boat and tiller weather protective covers to interior window curtains.
>
>
> We appreciate some out there feel business is business, it's a free country
> and beside we should not be bothering them with issues concerning the well
> being of GB.  Of course you who feel this way have the right to feel this
> way.   As we have the right to react in kind with those electing to live
> with this kind of disconnect.
>
>
> And while the List majority seems to have approved List advertising, I have
> to add that Cindy's book "America's Bubble Economy", that came out late 06
> and turned out to be right on, prompted Wiley and Sons to ask for another
> one.  "After Shock", at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. has gone from
> obscurity to the top of the financial books seller's list in just a few
> days
> before running out and waiting for the second printing.  I read the galleys
> and I hope this one is dead wrong.
>
>
> And that is all I have to say. (For now.)    If anyone does not like it,
> six
> of you, better make that three, can meet me 3/11 at the OK Coral at High
> Noon.  Since I will probably be 85, it will make a fair fight.
>
> stan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Communication on da Rhodes list
>
>
> > Todd,
> >
> > "... if you want to ban commercial advertisement, it will have to apply
> to
> > everyone."
> > Why? Why is this statement assumed to be true?  You are quite correct in
> > stating that this is a Rhodes 22 "Owners" list but one cannot equate
> > participation by the Rhodes 22 manufacturer with that of aftermarket
> > manufacturers.
> >
> > That said, I am NOT in favor of a ban on commercial posts at all.
> Please
> > keep them simple, occassional and not directed towards a particular
> > individual (do not chases leads on da list) and we will be fine.  If Stan
> > announces that he is building a Catalina Conversion available at a
> > particular price to those who might be interested, or Art has a boom room
> > for sale, that's fine by me.  I think that the problem was that Stan and
> > Art
> > were using da list to fuel their feud.
> >
> > I would still appreciate a simple website for reference, pictures and
> > pricing.  Art, if you need help setting it up, just ask.  They're not
> > difficult or expensive ($5/month or so at
> > http://www.netfirms.com/web-hosting/index.php including Sitebuilder.)
> > See,
> > commercial posting, no problem (NB: I am not affiliated with netfirms.)
> >
> > Mike
> > s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> > Nissequogue River, NY
> >
> > From: "Todd Tavares": Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:22 AM
> >>
> >> Rik, and Michael,
> >>
> >>    No disrespect meant to anyone here, but this is the Rhodes 22
> "OWNERS"
> >> list.  Not the General
> >> Boats list, Art's canvas list, etc. No one had a problem with Stan
> >> participating, posting ads, and
> >> even most agreed with his insane 5% commission for listed here for sale
> >> until a bunch of guys jumped on Art.
> >> But Stan has a website too.
> >> Maybe some of the more computer savvy guys here should help MJM re-do
> the
> >> GB website and literature
> >> so it is up to date and flashy.
> >>
> >> We are 99.9% loyal to Stan and the future of GB, but the bottom line is
> >> that this is the owners
> >> group list and if you want to ban commercial advertisement, it will have
> >> to apply to everyone.
> >> Let us not confuse the issues.
> >>
> >> Todd T
> >>>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rik Sandberg <sanderico1 at gmail.com>
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:20 am
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Communication on da Rhodes list
> >>>
> >> Art,
> >>
> >> "Know that I am the manufacturer,  also the designer, and also the
> worker
> >> bee.  I am also the risk taker - in a game with loaded dice"
> >>
> >> Yeah, so??? Is this the Art's boom room and pop-top enclosure list??
> >>
> >> In the almost 11 years I have been on this list, nobody has ever had a
> >> problem doing their business business back channel until you came along.
> >>
> >> Websites are cheap. Make one up, put a link in your sig.
> >>
> >> But please, stop whining about it.
> >>
> >> Rik
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Art Czerwonky
> >> <a_czerwonky at yahoo.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Michael,
> >>>
> >>> I defer to Stan and GBI on the credibility and quality of this boat we
> >>> all
> >>> own.  Unknown to him I referred two credible prospects directly to him
> >>> at
> >>> the St Pete show earlier this month.  I don't expect letters, candy, or
> >>> flowers for my honest attempt to help prosper his boat efforts.  I will
> >>> not,
> >>> however, defer to him on the credibility and quality of the cockpit
> >>> enclosure or the boat cover or even the PTE.
> >>>
> >>> Michael, with all due respect, you accord special status to the
> >>> manufacturer of a product.  Know that I am the manufacturer,  also the
> >>> designer, and also the worker bee.  I am also the risk taker - in a
> game
> >>> with loaded dice.  Stan does not manufacture canvas, and he is, no
> doubt
> >>> very thankful for that.  Sometimes it helps to put yourself in someone
> >>> else's shoes.  I need the opportunity to survive this business just
> like
> >>> he
> >>> does, for the good of a fleet that wants choices and viable options.
> >>>
> >>> Art
> >>>
> >>> --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > From: Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> >>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Commercial Ads on da Rhodes list
> >>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:12 PM
> >>> > Todd,
> >>> >
> >>> > You have a good point and I don't disagree except (here it
> >>> > comes) in the
> >>> > case of GBI.  After all, this is called the Rhodes 22
> >>> > list because it is
> >>> > about the Rhodes 22 sailboat.  I believe that Stan
> >>> > (GBI) has a slightly
> >>> > different place on the list than Art or anyone else for
> >>> > that matter.
> >>> >
> >>> > This list embodies a group of diverse individuals brought
> >>> > together mostly
> >>> > through the efforts of Stan, directly or indirectly.
> >>> > It has been my
> >>> > pleasure to provide information and assistance to other
> >>> > Rhodies, in an
> >>> > effort to help GBI.  This is not to say that I
> >>> > wouldn't help Art succeed,
> >>> > quite the contrary, but I do not treat the boat
> >>> > manufacturer and an
> >>> > aftermarket accessory maker in the same way.  I
> >>> > believe that this is the
> >>> > point of distinction.
> >>> >
> >>> > Mike
> >>> > s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >>> > Nissequogue River, NY
> >>>>
> >>> >
> >>> > From: "Todd Tavares" Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:33 PM
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Michael,
> >>> > >
> >>> > >     I think you are looking at
> >>> > that old discussion through Rose (and Stan)
> >>> > > colored glasses. Art has a valid point, regardless of
> >>> > the sour grapes
> >>> > > which went on between him and Stan.  Commercial
> >>> > advertisement is
> >>> > > commercial advertisement.  If you think Art
> >>> > should only be allowed to
> >>> > > direct Rhodes listers to a website, then the rules
> >>> > should apply across the
> >>> > > board---Art,Stan, myself, or anyone else.
> >>> > > IMHO
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Todd T
> >>>
> >>> > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > From: Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> >>> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> > > Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2009 3:00 pm
> >>> > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Commercial Ads on da Rhodes
> >>> > list
> >>>
> >>> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> > > From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
> >>> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:02 AM
> >>> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Babes on Boats
> >>>>>> > >
> >>> > >> All,
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> I think this is an excellent suggestion.  As
> >>> > I produce BR, PT, and cover
> >>> > >> options as a service to the fleet, MJM has
> >>> > suggested that it is somehow
> >>> > >> slacking ethic to make this knowledge available to
> >>> > the skippers who want
> >>> > >> and need it.  An interesting and apparently
> >>> > biased slant considering that
> >>> > >> Stan has freely taken the perogative with the
> >>> > Catalina 25 conversion,
> >>> > >> which he has openly announced and advertised on
> >>> > our list, with price and
> >>> > >> all.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Understand that I have no objection at all to
> >>> > Stan's placement of his
> >>> > >> notice/ad.  The playing field should be
> >>> > level, however.  Any double
> >>> > >> standard is a disservice to our fleet skippers and
> >>> > owners.  Our objective
> >>> > >> should be to provide the very best information and
> >>> > service to a very
> >>> > >> deserving and intelligent fleet market.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Art
> >>> > >> s/v Mary Jane
> >>> > >> Lake Hartwell/St Pete
>
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