[Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses

[Michael D. Weisner]

What makes you think that GBI is a typical business?

I have known Stan since 1980 and the word typical never comes to mind.  In 
these past 29 years, he still has not learned how to make money at this! 
Just ask Rose!  I bought my boat in her kitchen after a short sail, on a 
late October '80 Sunday afternoon, when she had different plans for the day, 
but Stanley convinced her to wait, since he was busy "selling" a boat.

I don't know about the "donations" or "commissions" but I had no problem 
lending my two hands, a truck, whatever was needed, when Elton's delivery 
vehicle blew a tranny on a delivery last year.  It was my pleasure to return 
the favors that Stan had offered over the years.  Why else would we continue 
to help newbies and oldies learn to sail and repair their R22?  Stan could 
not purchase a better customer support team (well, for the most part that's 
true.)

My feeling is that Art and Stan have widely different methods of selling and 
should never had teamed up.  Art appears to be inventive and prefers to be a 
very independent and straightforward salesman, even when Stan has other 
expectations.  Stan is not a salesman, he is a catalyst in creating a 
relationship between prospective buyer and the Rhodes 22.  Just as Stan 
hints on his website, he expects a buyer to fall in love with "his" boat. 
No love, no sale - and he's generally OK with that.  Not everyone will own a 
Rhodes 22, just a select few.

On the other hand, Art is selling a well thought out, practical addition to 
the love affair that we call an R22.  Certainly those of us who have sailed 
a Rhodes 22 for many years have realized that there is much more than the 
pretty gel coat, which fades over time (although Stan's recycled facelifts 
are amazing), to the R22 and easily appreciate the advantage of the Boom 
Room.  Art fills a need for some R22 sailors.

I suggest that we stop bashing and praising the respective parties and treat 
Stan and Art as totally separate entities, thus severing whatever 
relationship had existed.  Art should not sell directly, since there appears 
to be an issue of intellectual property rights with Stan.  I propose that 
all boom rooms, poptop enclosures, etc. should be ordered through GBI and 
Art can act simply as a supplier to GBI if Stan wishes to sell his 
creations.  This way Art has his independence and GBI can set the prices, 
markups, whatever.  Art need not attend boat shows, perform demo sails, etc. 
If Art wants more exposure for his boom room he would probably be wasting 
money with printed advertising since the largest contingent of Rhodes 22 
owners and prospective boom room customers live right here on this list (or 
are Stan's "other" customers.)  Hopefully, the two of them can settle their 
previous differences without resorting to legal remedies, although I am sure 
that Ben C. can handle that end.

Just some thoughts in an attempt to prevent the loss of a couple of 
interesting fellows ...

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses


>
> Ben,
>
> I had similar experiences dealing with Stan, Elton, Rose and the entire 
> crew
> at GBI; and long after my "new boat guarantee" Stan shipped me some parts
> for free.  He certainly didn't need to do this but in his mind it was the
> right thing to do and a good business practice.  If I sell my boat on this
> list I will gladly give Stan his commission, simply because of the way he
> does business.  I plan on going down with my boat so talk is cheap, but 
> it's
> the thought that counts.
>
> Art said, "I am not aware of any manufacturer (picture any of the sailboat
> manufacturers, even Catalina or MacGregor) who expects their customers to
> pay homage to them for after-market sales, maintenance or upgrades on 
> their
> products which are not contracted by the manufacturer.  Is anyone aware of
> such an industry obligation?"
>
> I'm certainly not aware of any such industry obligation and when I first
> heard that Stan expected a commission I thought he was crazy.  I still 
> think
> he's a little crazy and no business would ask such a ridiculous request
> unless they had a fanatically loyal customer base.  Personally I consider
> the commission like a donation for a good cause.  It's certainly not a
> typical business practice, but then Stan isn't your typical businessman.
>
> Lee
> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
> Kent Island, MD
>
>
>
>
> Ben Schultz wrote:
>>
>> I don't know how far down the road it will be, but there's a boom room in
>> my
>> future, and there's no chance that I buy it from anyone other than GB
>> (provided they're still around, of course).
>>
>> When we wanted to buy a boat, GB provided the lender additional paperwork
>> that got us a lower interest rate.
>>
>> When the boat was delivered, Elton stayed for three days making
>> corrections,
>> because he didn't like a couple of minor things that were non-standard in
>> the cabin layout.
>>
>> When Hurricane Katrina rose the waterline to well beyond the top of the
>> boat
>> + lines, twisted the mast into a pretzel, ripped off the hatches, and put
>> her back down sideways (and of course, unsinking) into the water, GB went
>> through every product on the market that would attempt to remove
>> barnicles.
>> They restored her to new, and they worked with me to figure out a way to
>> do
>> it with what my insurance would cover.
>>
>> After that, GB shipped me a new rudder.  Never made it past Raleigh, and
>> UPS
>> could never explain why.  So Stan ate the cost of the rudder and gave me
>> another one.
>>
>> This group of us is fortunate to have a vendor who has given us his home
>> phone number, provided free lodging at his facility, and done everything
>> you
>> could possibly ask.  We will never get the level of service from any
>> company
>> again that we enjoy from GB right now.  I, for one, won't spend any time
>> shopping around in order to save a few bucks on parts or toys to add to 
>> my
>> boat.
>>
>> Ben
>> R22 Velvet Elvis
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Mary Lou Troy
>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 12:07
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
>>
>> We hadn't intended to comment on this exchange but when you step in a
>> hornets nest sometimes you are compelled to do things you wouldn't
>> ordinarily do.
>>
>> If and when we decide to get a new pop-top enclosure (or a new to us,
>> used pop-top enclosure like our current one - purchased from GB that
>> has given us a number of years of service and which I have customized
>> to our needs) we plan to look at the available options from General
>> Boats and other vendors. We will purchase the item that best fits our
>> needs based on features and price point. If we purchase a pop-top
>> enclosure from another vendor particularly a vendor that has worked
>> with GB in the past, we would make sure that GB gets their commission
>> whether it is included in the vendor's price for the product or
>> whether we send it directly to General Boats. We would encourage
>> other Rhodes 22 owners to do the same.
>>
>> Mary Lou and Fred
>> the very pleased owners since 1998
>> of Fretless, a 1991 Rhodes 22
>> recycled by General Boats in 1998
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 12:25 PM 7/16/2009, you wrote:
>>>Dear Rhodies:
>>>
>>>Art says we are boring you all with this issue, that it is a private,
>>>personal matter and not appropriate to discuss in this forum.  He is
>>>incorrect.  It is a fundamental issue to GB's well being and therefore to
>>>you, to the extent of your interest in your Rhodes.   We suggest you hear
>> it
>>>out until resolved one way or another.
>>>
>>>Should you need a new IMF mast or centerboard or rudder blade or endless
>>>other unique parts that Art or others do not choose to invest in 
>>>producing
>> -
>>>and GB is not here, no one is going to be able to make your boat whole
>>>again.   There is good reason why most of us would not buy a car that is
>> out
>>>of production - there is certainly good reason why the Rhodes is not only
>>>easy to sell but also demands a premium price over boats no longer being
>>>built.  The former editor of Practical Sailor, in his book recommending
>>>trailer sailboats, ends his list by pointing out that the Rhodes is the
>> only
>>>suggested choice still in production.
>>>
>>>If not for the many private sellers and purchasers going along with the
>>>voluntary GB loyalty/royalty program (which incidentally, Art, who has
>>>purchased and sold several Rhodes privately, would not agree to) and not
>> for
>>>parts sales such as Pop Top enclosures (which, incidentally, we have
>> $10,000
>>>worth of sitting here in inventory), in an economy such as this, where 
>>>not
>> a
>>>single new boat is being sold, GB would have no choice but to abandon 
>>>this
>>>ship.
>>>
>>>
>>>OK, you can stop reading here. But for anyone wanting to understand why 
>>>we
>>>are so troubled by this particular Parts issue, a little background on an
>>>agreement that, we now learn from Art's e-mail to the List,  has
>>>unilaterally "mutually" agreed to have ended:
>>>Art worked on this project inside the GB plant, used the GB
>> "not-the-Hilton"
>>>facilities, displayed the product in hard to get and costly water space
>> that
>>>GB worked out during the Annapolis Boat Show and that GB ended up paying
>>>for, including even an additional day that Art unilaterally elected to
>> take.
>>>At the St. Petersburg Show, where after several years of trying, we
> managed
>>>a valuable water space, after hearing Art had his boat in FL, we asked if
>> he
>>>would like to promote the boom room at this show.  We returned Dr.
> Fullers'
>>>beautiful new boat that we had planned to use for demos from this space 
>>>in
>>>favor of Art using it with the understanding that we could use his boat
> for
>>>an occasional demo for a qualified pending prospect.  When Elton did take
> a
>>>prospect to Art's boat he found Art was not honoring the Show hours and
> the
>>>boat was chain-locked to the dock.  Art's position, "No one sails my
> boat".
>>>When we did mange Art to give a demo sail we explained to him that part 
>>>of
>>>the demonstration is that we go in and out of the large harbor under sail
>> as
>>>the competition does and that demos are only an hour in case another hot
>>>prospect comes along.   Art refused to sail and each time went to and 
>>>from
>>>the bay under power.  I suppose once sailing he was in his element since
> he
>>>stayed away for hours and few demos were done during the show.  Art's
>>>remarkable position:  He was a volunteer and could therefore make his own
>>>rules - just like volunteers for the army or the Red Cross.  Elton 
>>>finally
>>>blew his top when, after arranging for our hottest prospect to make a 
>>>long
>>>trip back to St. Petersburg on Sunday for a demo sail, Art announced that
>> he
>>>was leaving the show a day early - after all he was a volunteer and could
>>>make his own rules from moment to moment.   I certainly felt like an 
>>>idiot
>>>not having put Dr. Fuller's boat in that precious dock space.   I do not
>>>know if Art ever did show the boom room.
>>>
>>>
>>>The deal with Art pertained only to the boom room, with shared income 
>>>from
>>>its sales.  It was not for competing with other parts like the Pop Top
>>>enclosures which we have an inventory investment in.   Of course it is a
>>>free country and a free market and, of course, we all have seen what
>>>unregulated "freedom" can do to our economy.   To believe GB has the
>> freedom
>>>to keep investing in new ideas and keep investing in promoting the boat
> and
>>>taking care of current Rhodies' needs, for the non-rewarding benefit of
>>>private re-sales and parts sales for others to profit from, is a fantasy.
>>>It is important for us to have your feedback on these kind of issues. 
>>>We
>>>need the support of our owners if we are to keep worrying and working to
>>>keep our owners sailing and keep the value of their boats growing.  Or do
>> we
>>>just stop being so damn conscientious and say the hell with it and go
>>>sailing ourselves?  (No need for us to hear Rummy's answer to that last
>>>question.)
>>>
>>>stan/gbi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "cowie" <ccowie at cowieassociates.com>
>>>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:36 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] the war of the rhodeses
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > I had the pleasure of deploying my Bimini and pop top enclosure on my
>>> > recent
>>> > trip to st Michaels.  Both worked great.  I understand Stan has
>>> recently
>>> > improved the fit of the pop top enclosure and his guys did a great job
>> on
>>> > the custom installation.  While I could have ordered certain items
>> direct
>>> > I
>>> > have made a point to go thru general boats.  I think it's neat that I
>> own
>>> > a
>>> > boat that was concieved the same I was and hope to help it keep going
>> for
>>> > another fifty.
>>> >
>>> > stanleyl wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> OK gang, it looks like Art and I are going to take up the slack left
>>> by
>>> >> the withdrawal of the political junkies.   At first I thought we
>>> should
>>> >> label these upcoming e-mail missives so you can delete before 
>>> >> reading.
>>> >> But on reflection, what is going to be covered gets to the business
>>> >> basics
>>> >> of General Boats and its future.
>>> >>
>>> >> Art will be a formable opponent in this case, having graduated from
>>> the
>>> >> Academy vs. my not being able to get beyond the "Petty" ranking due 
>>> >> to
>> a
>>> >> Navy designated overbite.  My protestation that I did not plan to 
>>> >> bite
>>> >> the
>>> >> enemy fell on deaf ears.  I think being able to hear was not one of
>>> the
>>> >> requirements, as the unraveling facts in this case will bring out.
>>> >>
>>> >> In Art's opening remarks he says that the business terms with General
>>> >> Boats had been voided.  As proof he waves a blank paper that he has 
>>> >> in
>>> >> his
>>> >> hand about a sale GB nixed but he salvaged.   GB will show a timeline
>> and
>>> >> investments that will paint another picture.  The importance of this
>>> >> small
>>> >> claims case is seen in Art's 7/12/09 e-mail to Mary Lou - the tip of 
>>> >> a
>>> >> collectively growing ice burg that can sink the Rhodes  You may want
>>> to
>>> >> stay tuned to be informed by GB, Art, and fellow Rhodies, to draw 
>>> >> your
>>> >> own
>>> >> conclusions.
>>> >>
>>> >> stan/general boats
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go 
>>> >> to
>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > View this message in context:
>>> > http://www.nabble.com/the-war-of-the-rhodeses-tp24461657p24470681.html
>>> > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>
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>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/the-war-of-the-rhodeses-tp24461657p24537950.html
> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to 
> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
> 


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