[Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)

[John Shulick]

Rob,

Yep that pretty much covers it. Now what would the price point be for such a
boat? I have the origional literature that came with my 71 and you should
see that show package special price!!!

John S.


Rob Lowe wrote:
> 
> Drop the IMF, ditch the head, the water tank, the fancy motor lift, and
> re-model the interior?  Now you have my 1976 boat! I do have battery
> though. - rob
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John Shulick
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
> 
> 
> Rick,
> 
> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids idea of
> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch the head,
> the
> on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, re-model the
> interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live on the
> boat
> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights sufficient.
> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a first class
> floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have had the
> perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a macgregor 26
> using
> it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to make the
> mac
> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even if you're
> not
> racing its fun to be faster.
> 
> Respectfully submitted,
> John Shulick
> 
> 
> Rick-139 wrote:
>> 
>> David,
>> 
>> I hate to be the wet blanket again.  But racing sailboats is a whole
>> 'nother
>> market.  The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for racing
> is
>> to
>> convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats to
> race
>> against.
>> 
>> In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
>> distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated sales
> and
>> support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great Lakes
> with
>> the
>> J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable history
> of
>> maintaining one design integrity.
>> 
>> Of course, there's always PHRF racing.  But how many 20 - 25 foot
> cruising
>> sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
>> 
>> Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day sailing
>> boats
>> in the low 20's length are first timers.  From there, they either drop
> out
>> or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or
> both.
>> Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making cheap
>> starter
>> boats people can easily abandon for yachts.  Stan's main problem is he
> now
>> has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has
> evolved
>> for
>> his market.
>> 
>> Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August issue
> of
>> Sailing?  The title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  And
> despite
>> all
>> kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:  "More
> important,
>> where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"  That's some insult
> to a
>> builder who has admirably supported his product for decades.  But
> again,
>> that's part of the same mindset.
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Rick:
>>> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down to
> the
>>> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might need.
> Also,
>>> I
>>> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built the
> boat at
>>> most places and expect a response.  That's probably worth something
> to
>>> keep
>>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I don't think
> you
>>> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it.  If
> the
>>> group
>>> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just
> suggesting
>>> a
>>> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates might
> be a
>>> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
>>> loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into the
> price
>>> and
>>> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a royalty/loyalty
> up
>>> front for two years.  Then, continued association membership will
> require
>>> the annual dues.
>>>
>>> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked to
> send a
>>> 5%
>>> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or Chevy.
> I
>>> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as long as
> we
>>> get
>>> good owner support and parts availability.  For example, if someone
> comes
>>> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there
> ought to
>>> be
>>> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out.   If someone blows a sail
>>> out,
>>> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too.  I don't
> know
>>> if
>>> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I don't
>>> know
>>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts for
> non-members
>>> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so another
> added
>>> incentive to be one of the family.
>>>
>>> I hear what you are saying about the market.  Long term, owners are
> not
>>> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat.  You have got to get new
>>> customers
>>> through the door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions given by
> a
>>> lot
>>> of experienced people on the list.  My experiences with family run
>>> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you can
> keep
>>> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems open to some
> suggestions.
>>>
>>> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it as
>>> someone
>>> has mentioned.  A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for most,
> the
>>> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less
> frills"
>>> model
>>> to get younger couples through the doors.  You would have to be able
> to
>>> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an attractive
>>> price
>>> point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe a
> stripped
>>> down
>>> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need much down
> below
>>> and
>>> will pay for quality above.  The Rhodes is faster then a Catalina to
>>> being
>>> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
>>> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>>       <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give you
> the
>>> home
>>> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to you at
> any
>>> time."  Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and subsequently
> buy
>>> many
>>> things from Stan.
>>>
>>> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in the
>>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I think it will
> just
>>> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical information
> and
>>> spare parts are readily available.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Stan:
>>> >
>>> > Thank you for your insight into the business.  I dare say that most
>>> > sailboat
>>> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the factory; if
> the
>>> > factory is even still in business that is.
>>> >
>>> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning the
> Rhodes.
>>>  My
>>> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used boat
>>> purchaser
>>> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.  Either
> the
>>> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the new
> owner
>>> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat needs.
> And we
>>> all
>>> > know that used boats need something all the time.
>>> >
>>> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a new
> owner 5
>>> %
>>> > of
>>> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably spent
> more
>>> money
>>> > then they intended to begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the top of the
>>> scale
>>> in
>>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.  We see it all the time on
> the
>>> > list...  Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are trying to
>>> purchase
>>> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either saving
> up
>>> > their
>>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby they
>>> promptly
>>> > go
>>> > off-list and complete the transaction.
>>> >
>>> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $ 200.00
> to
>>> cover
>>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of the
> price
>>> I
>>> > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support that I
>>> have
>>> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from yourself.
> 
>>> That
>>> > is
>>> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the beginning.
> 
>>> This
>>> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
>>> >
>>> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy, in
> fact,
>>> > very
>>> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee.  For that
> annual
>>> > fee,
>>> > you have got to provide something however.  Which is another
> problem
>>> with
>>> a
>>> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are
> getting
>>> > something for their money.   In this case, for the annual
> association
>>> fee:
>>> >
>>> > Admission to the list
>>> > Technical support either from members or the factory
>>> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is kept up
> to
>>> date
>>> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we are
> doing
>>> > already.  Maybe you could come up with some member specials on
> pricing
>>> from
>>> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article that
>>> only
>>> > members would get.  I don't want to burden you with a bunch of
> extra
>>> work,
>>> > but there needs to be something unique about membership.  In this
> way,
>>> the
>>> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would
> generate
>>> > revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the membership,
> if we
>>> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I
> don't
>>> have
>>> a
>>> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell the
> boat.
>>> >  I'll
>>> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a "loyalty fee",
> it is
>>> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and been so
>>> helpful
>>> > over the years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI in
>>> business
>>> > then that helps them and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% then it
> gets my
>>> > buyer on the list free for two years.  Then he/she can do the
>>> responsible
>>> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
>>> >
>>> > The other situation which started the discussion in the beginning
> has
>>> to
>>> do
>>> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the Rhodes.  If
> a
>>> > member
>>> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique to the
>>> Rhodes
>>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then he/she
> goes
>>> > through you.  They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy it
> from
>>> you
>>> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised on the
>>> > member's
>>> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple as that.  They
> are
>>> a
>>> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me. 
>>> Obviously,
>>> > the
>>> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent direct
>>> marketing
>>> > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your back... we
> can
>>> take
>>> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on the open-market
> that
>>> is
>>> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that is a
>>> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
>>> >
>>> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think he or whomever
> takes
>>> on
>>> > those duties gets their membership free.
>>> >
>>> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if it
> is of
>>> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee
> should
>>> be.
>>> >
>>> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin....  But just keep in mind
>>> what
>>> > the
>>> > purpose is here.  Trying to come up with something palatable to
> help
>>> GBI
>>> > now
>>> > and us in the long run.
>>> >
>>> > David
>>> >
>>> > PS:
>>> >
>>> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of the
> best
>>> I
>>> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.  However, it
> needs
>>> some
>>> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More timely
> information
>>> and
>>> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used boats
>>> comes
>>> > to
>>> > mind since new boat sales are down.  Also, have you ever considered
> a
>>> new
>>> > "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles which
> someone
>>> could
>>> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about a racer before.
>>>  Could
>>> > you come up with something without having to have new
> molds-marketed as
>>> a
>>> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the interior weight, put a standard mast
> and
>>> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.  Catalina has a "sport model"
> and it
>>> > does
>>> > pretty well I think.  Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
>>> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> >
>>> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use of
> your
>>> forum
>>> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
>>> >
>>> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but
> attempt to
>>> be
>>> > evenhanded.  (If academically interested, we can provide exhibits
> and
>>> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
>>> >
>>> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing and
> remain
>>> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the same.
> It
>>> was
>>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  "never again"
> and
>>> took
>>> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A lawyer.  a station wagon
>>> full
>>> of
>>> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant corporation to
>>> > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all these pro
> se
>>> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and
> logic
>>> are
>>> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
>>> >
>>> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the
> logical
>>> side
>>> > of our position and offered suggestions.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its reasoning seems
> so
>>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent.  Those thinking us
> crazy
>>> for
>>> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one day.
>>> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of
> industry
>>> who
>>> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these dissenters
>>> seem
>>> to
>>> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which industries
>>> should
>>> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts.   Those in this
> group
>>> have
>>> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this
> program.  
>>> It
>>> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the "You
> must
>>> be
>>> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family, seeing
> the
>>> > light and converting.
>>> >
>>> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now having
>>> others
>>> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not resolved,
>>> will
>>> > come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the hallowed
> halls
>>> of
>>> > ole
>>> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand the
> ethics
>>> I
>>> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it was
>>> pre-ordained;
>>> > I
>>> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist.   And it
> has
>>> been
>>> a
>>> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the
> making
>>> of
>>> > money our secondary goal.   (The effects of that kind of religious
>>> fervor
>>> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)   There
> are
>>> ways
>>> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable parts
> side
>>> of
>>> > GB's business::
>>> >
>>> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy sails
>>> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at
> Roger's
>>> > expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at Stamford,
>>> simply
>>> > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being the tough
>>> business
>>> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat their
> sail
>>> > inventories they bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners but could
>>> price
>>> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched onto.
> 
>>> Or,
>>> >
>>> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase parts,
>>> unique
>>> > to
>>> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who fail
> to
>>> honor
>>> > agreements with GB.   We inherently do not like this retaliatory
> type
>>> of
>>> > solution, but it is a solution.   Or
>>> >
>>> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
>>> unauthorized
>>> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not our
>>> choice.
>>> >  However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the life
> cash
>>> flow
>>> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the
> thinking
>>> of
>>> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we have
> some
>>> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your
>>> appreciated
>>> > feedback.  The pro bono time we are having to devote to the
> problems
>>> and
>>> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming (and
> we
>>> hate
>>> > to
>>> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just
> can't
>>> seem
>>> > to
>>> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
>>> >
>>> > ss
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> to
>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> >
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
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