[Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)

[Rick]

John,

I was referring to organized racing.  Actually, I try to race any sailboat I
can find on the lake.  Once I took on the brig Niagara.  It was an even
match while she was sailing only with gaff and lateen sails.  Then they
dropped her square sails--it felt like my R22 was standing still as the
crowd waved and hooted over her transom..

Rick

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:52 AM, John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net> wrote:

>
> Rick,
>
> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids idea of
> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch the head, the
> on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, re-model the
> interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live on the boat
> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights sufficient.
> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a first class
> floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have had the
> perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a macgregor 26 using
> it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to make the mac
> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even if you're not
> racing its fun to be faster.
>
> Respectfully submitted,
> John Shulick
>
>
> Rick-139 wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I hate to be the wet blanket again.  But racing sailboats is a whole
> > 'nother
> > market.  The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for racing is
> > to
> > convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats to race
> > against.
> >
> > In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
> > distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated sales
> and
> > support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great Lakes with
> > the
> > J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable history of
> > maintaining one design integrity.
> >
> > Of course, there's always PHRF racing.  But how many 20 - 25 foot
> cruising
> > sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
> >
> > Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day sailing
> > boats
> > in the low 20's length are first timers.  From there, they either drop
> out
> > or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or both.
> > Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making cheap
> > starter
> > boats people can easily abandon for yachts.  Stan's main problem is he
> now
> > has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has evolved
> > for
> > his market.
> >
> > Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August issue of
> > Sailing?  The title itself is a reflection of that mindset.  And despite
> > all
> > kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with:  "More
> important,
> > where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?"  That's some insult to
> a
> > builder who has admirably supported his product for decades.  But again,
> > that's part of the same mindset.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Rick:
> >> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down to the
> >> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might need.  Also,
> >> I
> >> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built the boat
> at
> >> most places and expect a response.  That's probably worth something to
> >> keep
> >> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part.  I don't think you
> >> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it.  If the
> >> group
> >> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just
> suggesting
> >> a
> >> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates might be a
> >> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
> >> loyalty/royalty.  The 5% on the seller side will figure into the price
> >> and
> >> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a royalty/loyalty up
> >> front for two years.  Then, continued association membership will
> require
> >> the annual dues.
> >>
> >> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked to send a
> >> 5%
> >> fee to the factory.  Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or Chevy.  I
> >> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as long as we
> >> get
> >> good owner support and parts availability.  For example, if someone
> comes
> >> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there ought
> to
> >> be
> >> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out.   If someone blows a sail
> >> out,
> >> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too.  I don't know
> >> if
> >> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I don't
> >> know
> >> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry.  Maybe parts for non-members
> >> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so another added
> >> incentive to be one of the family.
> >>
> >> I hear what you are saying about the market.  Long term, owners are not
> >> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat.  You have got to get new
> >> customers
> >> through the door.  There have been a lot of good suggestions given by a
> >> lot
> >> of experienced people on the list.  My experiences with family run
> >> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you can
> keep
> >> your advice to yourself.  However, Stan seems open to some suggestions.
> >>
> >> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it as
> >> someone
> >> has mentioned.  A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for most,  the
> >> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less frills"
> >> model
> >> to get younger couples through the doors.  You would have to be able to
> >> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an attractive
> >> price
> >> point and I don't know if that is possible.  I thought maybe a stripped
> >> down
> >> racing version might be a solution.  Racers don't need much down below
> >> and
> >> will pay for quality above.  The Rhodes is faster then a Catalina to
> >> being
> >> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
> >>
> >> Just my thoughts,
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
> >> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Message-ID:
> >>       <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >> David,
> >>
> >> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give you the
> >> home
> >> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to you at
> any
> >> time."  Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and subsequently buy
> >> many
> >> things from Stan.
> >>
> >> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in the
> >> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats?  I think it will just
> >> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical information and
> >> spare parts are readily available.
> >>
> >> Rick
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Stan:
> >> >
> >> > Thank you for your insight into the business.  I dare say that most
> >> > sailboat
> >> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the factory; if the
> >> > factory is even still in business that is.
> >> >
> >> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning the
> Rhodes.
> >>  My
> >> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used boat
> >> purchaser
> >> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.  Either
> the
> >> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the new
> owner
> >> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat needs.  And
> we
> >> all
> >> > know that used boats need something all the time.
> >> >
> >> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a new owner
> 5
> >> %
> >> > of
> >> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably spent more
> >> money
> >> > then they intended to begin with.  The Rhodes 22 is the top of the
> >> scale
> >> in
> >> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap.  We see it all the time on
> the
> >> > list...  Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are trying to
> >> purchase
> >> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either saving up
> >> > their
> >> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby they
> >> promptly
> >> > go
> >> > off-list and complete the transaction.
> >> >
> >> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $ 200.00 to
> >> cover
> >> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of the price
> >> I
> >> > paid.  In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support that I
> >> have
> >> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from yourself.
> >> That
> >> > is
> >> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the beginning.
> >> This
> >> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
> >> >
> >> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy, in
> fact,
> >> > very
> >> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee.  For that
> annual
> >> > fee,
> >> > you have got to provide something however.  Which is another problem
> >> with
> >> a
> >> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are getting
> >> > something for their money.   In this case, for the annual association
> >> fee:
> >> >
> >> > Admission to the list
> >> > Technical support either from members or the factory
> >> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is kept up to
> >> date
> >> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we are doing
> >> > already.  Maybe you could come up with some member specials on pricing
> >> from
> >> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article that
> >> only
> >> > members would get.  I don't want to burden you with a bunch of extra
> >> work,
> >> > but there needs to be something unique about membership.  In this way,
> >> the
> >> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would generate
> >> > revenue for you over the longer term.  As part of the membership, if
> we
> >> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I don't
> >> have
> >> a
> >> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell the boat.
> >> >  I'll
> >> > even stipulate it in my will.  I figure if I owe a "loyalty fee", it
> is
> >> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and been so
> >> helpful
> >> > over the years.  If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI in
> >> business
> >> > then that helps them and you.  As a seller, if I pay 5% then it gets
> my
> >> > buyer on the list free for two years.  Then he/she can do the
> >> responsible
> >> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
> >> >
> >> > The other situation which started the discussion in the beginning has
> >> to
> >> do
> >> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the Rhodes.  If a
> >> > member
> >> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique to the
> >> Rhodes
> >> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then he/she goes
> >> > through you.  They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy it from
> >> you
> >> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised on the
> >> > member's
> >> > list by another member or by a third party.  Simple as that.  They are
> >> a
> >> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me.
> >> Obviously,
> >> > the
> >> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent direct
> >> marketing
> >> > by a third party.  If a member tries to go behind your back... we can
> >> take
> >> > care of that.  If something comes up for sale on the open-market that
> >> is
> >> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that is a
> >> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
> >> >
> >> > Right now MJM is administering the list.  I think he or whomever takes
> >> on
> >> > those duties gets their membership free.
> >> >
> >> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if it is
> of
> >> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee should
> >> be.
> >> >
> >> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin....  But just keep in mind
> >> what
> >> > the
> >> > purpose is here.  Trying to come up with something palatable to help
> >> GBI
> >> > now
> >> > and us in the long run.
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> > PS:
> >> >
> >> > Other thoughts:  The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of the
> best
> >> I
> >> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes.  However, it needs
> >> some
> >> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool.  More timely information
> >> and
> >> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used boats
> >> comes
> >> > to
> >> > mind since new boat sales are down.  Also, have you ever considered a
> >> new
> >> > "entry level"  boat without all the bells and whistles which someone
> >> could
> >> > purchase at a bit lower price?  You've talked about a racer before.
> >>  Could
> >> > you come up with something without having to have new molds-marketed
> as
> >> a
> >> > "Sport" Rhodes 22?   Lower the interior weight, put a standard mast
> and
> >> > racing sails on it and a spinaker.  Catalina has a "sport model" and
> it
> >> > does
> >> > pretty well I think.  Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
> >> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
> >> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
> >> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
> >> >
> >> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use of your
> >> forum
> >> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
> >> >
> >> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but attempt
> to
> >> be
> >> > evenhanded.  (If academically interested, we can provide exhibits and
> >> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
> >> >
> >> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing and
> remain
> >> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the same.
> It
> >> was
> >> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of  "never again" and
> >> took
> >> > on anyone who wronged us:  A policeman.  A lawyer.  a station wagon
> >> full
> >> of
> >> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant corporation to
> >> > docketing at the US Supreme Court.   We prevailed in all these pro se
> >> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and logic
> >> are
> >> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
> >> >
> >> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the logical
> >> side
> >> > of our position and offered suggestions.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program:   Its reasoning seems so
> >> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent.  Those thinking us
> crazy
> >> for
> >> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one day.
> >> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of
> industry
> >> who
> >> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these dissenters
> >> seem
> >> to
> >> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which industries
> >> should
> >> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts.   Those in this group
> >> have
> >> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this program.
> >> It
> >> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the "You must
> >> be
> >> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family, seeing
> the
> >> > light and converting.
> >> >
> >> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now having
> >> others
> >> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not resolved,
> >> will
> >> > come home to bite us all.   ( When I walked out of the hallowed halls
> >> of
> >> > ole
> >> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand the
> ethics
> >> I
> >> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory.  But it was
> >> pre-ordained;
> >> > I
> >> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist.   And it has
> >> been
> >> a
> >> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the making
> >> of
> >> > money our secondary goal.   (The effects of that kind of religious
> >> fervor
> >> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)   There are
> >> ways
> >> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable parts
> side
> >> of
> >> > GB's business::
> >> >
> >> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy sails
> >> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at Roger's
> >> > expense.  Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at Stamford,
> >> simply
> >> > raised the price of his boat and included sails.  Being the tough
> >> business
> >> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat their sail
> >> > inventories they bought elsewhere.  We are slow learners but could
> >> price
> >> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched onto.
> >> Or,
> >> >
> >> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase parts,
> >> unique
> >> > to
> >> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who fail to
> >> honor
> >> > agreements with GB.   We inherently do not like this retaliatory type
> >> of
> >> > solution, but it is a solution.   Or
> >> >
> >> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
> >> unauthorized
> >> > parts vendors.   This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not our
> >> choice.
> >> >  However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the life cash
> >> flow
> >> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the
> thinking
> >> of
> >> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we have
> some
> >> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your
> >> appreciated
> >> > feedback.  The pro bono time we are having to devote to the problems
> >> and
> >> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming (and we
> >> hate
> >> > to
> >> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just can't
> >> seem
> >> > to
> >> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
> >> >
> >> > ss
> >> > __________________________________________________
> >> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> > __________________________________________________
> >> >
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
>
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