[Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim

Tue Jul 28 12:01:48 EDT 2009

You usually only rent them.  The going rate is a sixpack each after the 
race.
David Walker

www.davidwalkerphotography.com

Event Specialists

781-639-2707 Office
781-718-8690 Cell
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at nyu.edu>
To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim

> Dave
>
> Where can I buy Deck Apes?
> they're not in the WM catalog?
>
> Lou
>
> On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:52 AM, David Walker wrote:
>
>> I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I
>> have to
>> make a few comments.
>>
>> 1)  The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to sail
>> relatively flat.  This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
>> surface
>> and best hull form factor in the water.   All heel does is
>> effectively lower
>> the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out
>> of the
>> water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it
>> is less
>> effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can stall the
>> rudder.  Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
>> heeling
>> because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
>> waterline length whwn heeling.  This usually comes about due to
>> specific
>> racing class design formulas.
>>
>> All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck
>> apes, b) reef
>> sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
>>
>> 2)  All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
>> Water
>> passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
>> which
>> keeps the boat going intoo the wind.  The lateral resistance of the
>> board is
>> mimimal compared to the sails.  There is no reason (healing, light
>> air,
>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up.  The amount of
>> board down
>> can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE
>> (center of
>> effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails
>> has the
>> board is lowered.  On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
>> reduce
>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the
>> board and
>> the rudder combine to create directional stability.
>>
>> For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
>> "Sail
>> Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
>> House.  He
>> describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail
>> trim for
>> all conditions.
>>
>>
>> David Walker
>>
>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>
>> Event Specialists
>>
>> 781-639-2707 Office
>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>
>>
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> That makes sense.  If the boat normally heels less with the
>>> centerboard
>>> up,
>>> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
>>> wind.
>>>
>>> Lee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jlock wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Actually I think it is the opposite.  With the board up, a gust will
>>>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
>>>> doing so, producing less heel.  But with the board down, it will
>>>> offer
>>>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle.
>>>> The
>>>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> John Lock
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>>>> Lake Sinclair, GA
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
>>>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
>>>>> somewhere vs a
>>>>> relaxing time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
>>>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
>>>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
>>>>> boat will
>>>>> react and heel much easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
>>>>>> began
>>>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode.  I do not know of anyone who
>>>>>> would beat
>>>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
>>>>>> slippage,
>>>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of knockdown.  I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
>>>>>> caution,
>>>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy sailing,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
>>>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic. Womehow my
>>>>>>> flawed
>>>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
>>>>>>> better (i.e.
>>>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
>>>>>>> something I will
>>>>>>> do this week.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Lee!
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the wind
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will
>>>>>>>> have on
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway.  The board is most useful
>>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better
>>>>>>>> headway is
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day.  With
>>>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the time
>>>>>>>> on broad
>>>>>>>> reaches and runs.  On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow
>>>>>>>> you to
>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your slip.  I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> if for either one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed.  I think the term
>>>>>>>> is VMG
>>>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>> making.  If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
>>>>>>>> sure it
>>>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in speed
>>>>>>>> it sure
>>>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lee,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
>>>>>>>>> suggested,
>>>>>>>>> but have concerns.
>>>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
>>>>>>>>> tacking
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> up after the tack?
>>>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and all I
>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making
>>>>>>>>> headway. In
>>>>>>>>> essence
>>>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when the
>>>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
>>>>>>>>> anywhere
>>>>>>>>> soon
>>>>>>>>> this is all fine.
>>>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up.  From the
>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes
>>>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
>>>>>>>>>> Precisions:  5.
>>>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The board is
>>>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
>>>>>>>>>> significantly
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
>>>>>>>>>> both heel
>>>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions.  If I raise the board all the
>>>>>>>>>> way on
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel also.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails.
>>>>>>>>>> For the
>>>>>>>>>> amount
>>>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast
>>>>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>>>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll then
>>>>>>>>>> be able
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail out.
>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
>>>>>>>>>> headsail
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to tack
>>>>>>>>>> even if
>>>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind.  Last week I was in a 12 knot wind.
>>>>>>>>>> On a
>>>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
>>>>>>>>>> lbs of
>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up and
>>>>>>>>>> the main
>>>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%.  With the boom down I had the same heel with
>>>>>>>>>> 100% main.
>>>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
>>>>>>>>>> 80%.  If I
>>>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
>>>>>>>>>> for me
>>>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good luck!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lee
>>>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
>>>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind
>>>>>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>>>>> challenging
>>>>>>>>>>> too.  The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it
>>>>>>>>>>> wants to
>>>>>>>>>>> push
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> boat
>>>>>>>>>>> away from the tack.  One technique that has worked for me is
>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger.  When you push the
>>>>>>>>>>> tiller to
>>>>>>>>>>> lee,
>>>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet fly.
>>>>>>>>>>> (for
>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib)  This reduces the
>>>>>>>>>>> drive
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind.  Just as the bow comes
>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>>>>> wind,
>>>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
>>>>>>>>>>> jib and
>>>>>>>>>>> push the
>>>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come
>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> wind, the
>>>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
>>>>>>>>>>> tack.  In
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the
>>>>>>>>>>> wind and
>>>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards.  In that case as I said in an earlier post,
>>>>>>>>>>> shift
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
>>>>>>>>>>> new tack
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David Walker
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>>>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87 w a
>>>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
>>>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
>>>>>>>>>>>> struggle
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light winds,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it can
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming
>>>>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is
>>>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come about is
>>>>>>>>>>>> started.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> R on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was down
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24681160.html
>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>> go to
>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>> list go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24685194.html
>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24698152.html
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>> go to
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>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>
> Lou Rosenberg
> Videographer
>
> Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
> Human Development at NYU
>
> 239 Greene Street, Room 315
> lsr3 at nyu.edu
>
> (212) 998-5122
>
>
>
>
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