[Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim
Lou Rosenberg
lsr3 at nyu.edu
Tue Jul 28 12:05:47 EDT 2009
Dave, Rick,
I ve always wanted to experiment with stuffing a mannequin with
sand. when I tack, I would simply pick up the heavy dummy and
place it on the windward side. No beer needed!
I could stuff my blow up doll but I doubt it would hold up for an
entire day:)
Lou
On Jul 28, 2009, at 12:01 PM, David Walker wrote:
> You usually only rent them. The going rate is a sixpack each after
> the
> race.
> David Walker
>
> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>
> Event Specialists
>
> 781-639-2707 Office
> 781-718-8690 Cell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at nyu.edu>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Centerboard and Sail Trim
>
>
>> Dave
>>
>> Where can I buy Deck Apes?
>> they're not in the WM catalog?
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2009, at 11:52 AM, David Walker wrote:
>>
>>> I've tried to stay quiet while watching these posts fly by but I
>>> have to
>>> make a few comments.
>>>
>>> 1) The R22 sails basically like a big dinghy. It really wants to
>>> sail
>>> relatively flat. This gives maximum depth to the CB, least wetted
>>> surface
>>> and best hull form factor in the water. All heel does is
>>> effectively lower
>>> the sails, create weather helm and portentially pull the rudder out
>>> of the
>>> water. If the rudder is partially out of the water due to heel, it
>>> is less
>>> effective and requires more angle which creates drag and can
>>> stall the
>>> rudder. Some (not all) keel boats can sail faster with significant
>>> heeling
>>> because they are designed with significant hull overhangs which add
>>> waterline length whwn heeling. This usually comes about due to
>>> specific
>>> racing class design formulas.
>>>
>>> All that being said the ways to reduce heal are to a) use deck
>>> apes, b) reef
>>> sails and c) trim sails to maximize lift and minimize drag
>>>
>>> 2) All CB boats will sail better on the wind with the board down.
>>> Water
>>> passing by the boards leading edge at the leeway angle creates lift
>>> which
>>> keeps the boat going intoo the wind. The lateral resistance of the
>>> board is
>>> mimimal compared to the sails. There is no reason (healing, light
>>> air,
>>> heavy air) to sail on the wind with the board up. The amount of
>>> board down
>>> can be experimented with to modify weather/lee helm as the CE
>>> (center of
>>> effort) of the board will change relative to the CE of the sails
>>> has the
>>> board is lowered. On a run, racing sailors will raise the board to
>>> reduce
>>> drag, but you will find that makes steering more difficult as the
>>> board and
>>> the rudder combine to create directional stability.
>>>
>>> For those interested I reccommend a small paper back book entitled
>>> "Sail
>>> Trim - Theory and Practice" by Peter Hahne, published by Sheridan
>>> House. He
>>> describes in detail, trimming techniques to use to optimize sail
>>> trim for
>>> all conditions.
>>>
>>>
>>> David Walker
>>>
>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>>
>>> Event Specialists
>>>
>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Leland" <LKUHN at cnmc.org>
>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> That makes sense. If the boat normally heels less with the
>>>> centerboard
>>>> up,
>>>> it stands to reason that it would also heel less in a big gust of
>>>> wind.
>>>>
>>>> Lee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jlock wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually I think it is the opposite. With the board up, a gust
>>>>> will
>>>>> tend to push the hull sideways more easily and expend some energy
>>>>> doing so, producing less heel. But with the board down, it will
>>>>> offer
>>>>> resistance to the sideways push of the gust at a very low angle.
>>>>> The
>>>>> results will be more heel above the waterline.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>> John Lock
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>>>>> Lake Sinclair, GA
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 13:41, MichaelT wrote:
>>>>>> I'll have to balance the compromises here w/ needing to get
>>>>>> somewhere vs a
>>>>>> relaxing time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, how real is the risk of a knockdown w/ the board up?
>>>>>> Has there been any reported knockdowns with the board up?
>>>>>> I suppose if a BIG gust came across and the board was up that the
>>>>>> boat will
>>>>>> react and heel much easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These 'board up' options are a new one to me, partly because I
>>>>>>> began
>>>>>>> serious sailing in a racing mode. I do not know of anyone who
>>>>>>> would beat
>>>>>>> into the wind with the board up in competition, certainly due to
>>>>>>> slippage,
>>>>>>> which Hank emphasizes so well, but also the risk of
>>>>>>> knockdown. I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> never tried it, Michael, but I'd approach this technique with
>>>>>>> caution,
>>>>>>> especially if your wife is aboard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Happy sailing,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Jul 27, 2009 9:56 AM
>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the first hand knowledge wrt the centerboard.
>>>>>>>> You've certainly changed the fundamentals of my logic.
>>>>>>>> Womehow my
>>>>>>>> flawed
>>>>>>>> thinking was that with the board up that the Rhodes would heel
>>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>>> difficult to turn. On the contrary, the Rhodes actually sails
>>>>>>>> better (i.e.
>>>>>>>> less heel, easy to to turn) with the board up. Definitely
>>>>>>>> something I will
>>>>>>>> do this week.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Lee!
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will allow you to sail closer to the
>>>>>>>>> wind
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>> better headway (less drifting).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, the faster you go the less impact the board will
>>>>>>>>> have on
>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>> sailing close to the wind and headway. The board is most
>>>>>>>>> useful
>>>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>>>> want to make headway in light wind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm a daysailor so the only time I need to make better
>>>>>>>>> headway is
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> necessary to get back to my marina at the end of the day.
>>>>>>>>> With
>>>>>>>>> yesterday's high wind and the current and chop pushing me away
>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>> wind, I never once lowered my board and sailed part of the
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> on broad
>>>>>>>>> reaches and runs. On tacks the boat turned like a sports car.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the board down it will act as a pivot point and allow
>>>>>>>>> you to
>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>> easier whether you are tacking or motoring around your
>>>>>>>>> slip. I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> if for either one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've measured my speed countless times with the board up and
>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>>> has always had a negative impact on speed. I think the term
>>>>>>>>> is VMG
>>>>>>>>> (velocity made good?) which measures how much headway you're
>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>> making. If I could figure out how to measure it on my GPS I'm
>>>>>>>>> sure it
>>>>>>>>> would show that the board helps, but with the reduction in
>>>>>>>>> speed
>>>>>>>>> it sure
>>>>>>>>> doesn't seem that way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MichaelT wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lee,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking about bringing the centerboard up as you
>>>>>>>>>> suggested,
>>>>>>>>>> but have concerns.
>>>>>>>>>> Did you flip bringing the centerboard up and down. Down when
>>>>>>>>>> tacking
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> up after the tack?
>>>>>>>>>> I remember when I forgot to let the centerboard down and
>>>>>>>>>> all I
>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>> remember was going sideways and difficulty in making
>>>>>>>>>> headway. In
>>>>>>>>>> essence
>>>>>>>>>> the boat was slipping and pushed sideways by the wind when
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> centerboard is up. I suppose as long as we don't need to be
>>>>>>>>>> anywhere
>>>>>>>>>> soon
>>>>>>>>>> this is all fine.
>>>>>>>>>> At the end I'll have to let my wife judge!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Great suggestion!
>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Leland wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You're getting lots of good advice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You'll have a little less heel with the board up. From the
>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes
>>>>>>>>>>> Owners' Site under FAQs under Rhodes vs. Com-Pac vs.
>>>>>>>>>>> Precisions: 5.
>>>>>>>>>>> Retract the centerboard part way in a big breeze. The
>>>>>>>>>>> board is
>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally modest in weight, and does not contribute
>>>>>>>>>>> significantly
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> stability up or down. Raising the board part way will reduce
>>>>>>>>>>> both heel
>>>>>>>>>>> and weather helm.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The quote refers to Precisions. If I raise the board all
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> way on
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> Rhodes it usually only reduces heel by about 3 degrees but
>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In an 8-10 knot wind, lowering the boom will reduce heel
>>>>>>>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As Dave mentioned the boat sails better with two sails.
>>>>>>>>>>> For the
>>>>>>>>>>> amount
>>>>>>>>>>> of wind you described you probably weren't going fast
>>>>>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>>>>>>>>>>> Come off the wind enough to get up some speed and you'll
>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>> be able
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> turn her sharply into the wind.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I first got my Rhodes I typically had too much sail
>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>> wise to be conservative in your sail plan, but without any
>>>>>>>>>>> headsail
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> so little main you probably couldn't get enough speed to
>>>>>>>>>>> tack
>>>>>>>>>>> even if
>>>>>>>>>>> you had come off the wind. Last week I was in a 12 knot
>>>>>>>>>>> wind.
>>>>>>>>>>> On a
>>>>>>>>>>> close reach with balanced sails with the board up and my 190
>>>>>>>>>>> lbs of
>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>>> meat, I had less than 20 degrees of heel with the boom up
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> the main
>>>>>>>>>>> reefed to 80%. With the boom down I had the same heel with
>>>>>>>>>>> 100% main.
>>>>>>>>>>> I have my mainsail furling line marked for reefs at 60% and
>>>>>>>>>>> 80%. If I
>>>>>>>>>>> have to reef the tiny little main beyond 60%, it's too windy
>>>>>>>>>>> for me
>>>>>>>>>>> (over 20 knots) and I go home.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lee
>>>>>>>>>>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Island, MD
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> david.walker5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tacking with the jib, especially very light or heavy wind
>>>>>>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> challenging
>>>>>>>>>>>> too. The problem is the jib is very powerfull and it
>>>>>>>>>>>> wants to
>>>>>>>>>>>> push
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> boat
>>>>>>>>>>>> away from the tack. One technique that has worked for
>>>>>>>>>>>> me is
>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> borrowed from sailing a square rigger. When you push the
>>>>>>>>>>>> tiller to
>>>>>>>>>>>> lee,
>>>>>>>>>>>> loosen the jibe immediately, but do not let the sheet fly.
>>>>>>>>>>>> (for
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>> interested its called scandalizing the jib) This
>>>>>>>>>>>> reduces the
>>>>>>>>>>>> drive
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sail and allows it to turn up wind. Just as the bow comes
>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wind,
>>>>>>>>>>>> tighten the sheet a little. The wind will then backwind the
>>>>>>>>>>>> jib and
>>>>>>>>>>>> push the
>>>>>>>>>>>> bow the rest of the way onto the new tack. As you come
>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wind, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wind on the new tack will push the sail across to the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> tack. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy wind you may end up "in stays" or headed into the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wind and
>>>>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> pushed backwards. In that case as I said in an earlier
>>>>>>>>>>>> post,
>>>>>>>>>>>> shift
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rudder (tiller to windward) and the boat will back onto the
>>>>>>>>>>>> new tack
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> start to sail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> David Walker
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.davidwalkerphotography.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Event Specialists
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-639-2707 Office
>>>>>>>>>>>> 781-718-8690 Cell
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Stephen Staum" <staum at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:32 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Partial Mainsail
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too have a wife who likes to sail flat. I have an '87
>>>>>>>>>>>>> w a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 184 per
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cent genoa. I usually start w 1/2 of the genny as the jib
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> powers this boat. Even w the full main out (alone) u will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> struggle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> come about. Also, if u have the full jib out in light
>>>>>>>>>>>>> winds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult 2 get the jib 2 come across when coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> often easier 2 jibe or roll up 1/2 the jib b4 come
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> started.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Staum
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:47 PM, MichaelT <mticse at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Went out with the family on Sunday and wanted to play it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew the IMF mainsail approx halfway on the boom (the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't showing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to keep things simple and used no jib. Centerboard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The boat stayed flat as a pancake which was the desired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My wife wants no heeling whatsoever. Problem I had was I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It even had a hard time getting into irons and just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cutover.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way I could change direction was to spin 2/3's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jibe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to experiment and let out more sail so we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next hour like this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this normal behaviour? What am I doing wrong?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tp24647946p24647946.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24681160.html
>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> go to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>>> list go
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24685194.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>>> list go
>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>> go to
>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Partial-Mainsail-tp24647946p24698152.html
>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> Lou Rosenberg
>> Videographer
>>
>> Steinhardt School of Culture, Education and
>> Human Development at NYU
>>
>> 239 Greene Street, Room 315
>> lsr3 at nyu.edu
>>
>> (212) 998-5122
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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