[Rhodes22-list] Fw: general boat's dilema
Arthur H. Czerwonky
czerwonky at earthlink.net
Wed Jul 29 09:31:43 EDT 2009
John,
Welcome aboard the list and your involvement. This fleet is strong for the mix of its skippers as well an exceptional boat. If you can come to the show you'll have a rather rare opportunity to meet many of them as we have a get-together in a nearby restaurant, I can't remember what day that will be this year - maybe we should take a poll. C'mon down and enjoy! You will also see one of the most exceptional sailboat displays in the country. Lee may have a handle on what is cooking locally, or Mary Lou and Fred may know. We have alot of skippers in the North Chesapeake environs, let's show the flag. BTW, is there an R22 burgee?
Another option we could use in helping GB is to followup on inquiries on the Rhodes from shows, calls, or curious prospects we may meet as our marinas. If local owners are informed about such prospects from Stan or other owners, they could be invited out on a sail or into a conversation about our boat, maybe about their boat and/or sailing interests. We get random requests from wannabes, maybe a more proactive initiative on our part, done tastefully, would develop into prospects for Stan. He can suggest names, approach, interests selectively to get the ball/tide rolling. A passive approach will not enhance sales prospects for GB.
I share your past interest in the Mariner (#1607) and the O'Day boats (222). I haven't seen much racing interest in our skippers, but welcome correction if it is due. Involvement in the racing is alot of fun. Stan suggested a strictly racing R22 a few years ago, maybe to be revived. Are you IMF (probably) or Conventional? What size Genny? Have you raced out of Brant Beach, or is it mostly a cruising venue? Which motor have you preferred?
We welcome your involvement, John, and look forward to your reply.
Art
s/v Mary Jane
Hartwell and St Pete
--Original Message-----
>From: John <johnrowland at optonline.net>
>Sent: Jul 28, 2009 9:50 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Fw: general boat's dilema
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John" <johnrowland at optonline.net>
>To: <rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>
>
>>I have submitted one or two messages to the list, but would like to get
>>more involved. I purchased a 1989 Rhodes22 about 1 year ago. I have raced
>>Mariners years ago, owned a few O'Days, and never found a boat that I enjoy
>>more than this one. Heaven forbid General Boats has problems. There is no
>>owner loyalty, or construction quality (or--even more important--customer
>>service) that compares with this company. While I probably cannot attend
>>the Annapolis Show, I need to know what I (and other loyal owners) can do
>>to keep this company strong.
>>
>> I have been amazed at the discussions on this list (with the exception of
>> the political issues regarding the last election). My goodness, where
>> else can I learn about how to sail more effectively and fix whatever
>> problems I have on the boat. I do not call a customer service number that
>> keeps me on hold for hours--I talk to the owner of the company!!
>>
>> I will not get involved in discussions regarding royalties, but do think
>> that each of us owes Stan some support in keeping this boat alive.
>>
>> I am actually in a slip next to a Hunter 40, and I am happier with this
>> boat.
>>
>> I read a lot of e-mails from individuals who offer suggestions about other
>> members issues and questions. What better support canone get than this?
>>
>> I keep the boat at a slip at the Brant Beach Yacht Club in Brant Beach,
>> New Jersey and look forward to meeting other owners in the area.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rick" <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>>
>>
>>> $1.97
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <
>>> czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rick,
>>>>
>>>> Good idea, buddy! Somehow to add a unique personal touch. I would add,
>>>> however, that Mary Lou really does not need to dance on table tops at
>>>> the
>>>> Annapolis show. Fred, Pleassse!
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the blazers, but, as we are in shoestring mode, what about
>>>> a
>>>> Hanes T-shirt, and of course, hospitality hot dogs with lots of mustard
>>>> and
>>>> relish. Seriously, I embroidered some nice looking T-shirts for the '07
>>>> show, different color each day, some were 'Name, and rhodes22.com', and
>>>> some were 'name, boomroom, rhodes22.com', each comma'd section above the
>>>> other. They were noticed by our visitors, never a comment or compliment
>>>> otherwise. You might have to get used to it... rhoadies are tough.
>>>>
>>>> Let's gel some more ideas for Stan to use. At least it engages the
>>>> imagination of the smart cookies in our magnificent Rhodes fleet.
>>>>
>>>> No commissions or royalty this time either, guys. What do you charge,
>>>> Rick?
>>>>
>>>> Art
>>>> s/v Mary Jane
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 2:00 PM
>>>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's dilema
>>>> >
>>>> >Art,
>>>> >
>>>> >Using owners at shows sounds like a good idea. Carver has success with
>>>> that
>>>> >at the Cleveland show, dressing everyone up the same way in blue
>>>> >blazers.
>>>> >
>>>> >I doubt any mass media advertising would have payback. Since all the
>>>> major
>>>> >sailing magazines have been pushing for so long the Catalina wave that
>>>> >you
>>>> >start at 22 feet and buy up from there, a GBI ad would be swamped.
>>>> >Maybe
>>>> >direct mail to long-time owners on state and Coast Guard sailboat
>>>> >registration lists, pushing the R22 as a quality downsize option?
>>>> >
>>>> >Rick
>>>> >
>>>> >On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <
>>>> >czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> John, Rob,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You may recall that Stan proposed a stripped down version, call it a
>>>> racing
>>>> >> model, on the list a few years ago, and although I expressed interest
>>>> >> in
>>>> >> this new boat option to him, maybe others too, no further information
>>>> was
>>>> >> provided to my knowledge. Back at that time Stan expressed his
>>>> >> ability
>>>> to
>>>> >> produce, and now maybe he will further reconsider and tell us more
>>>> >> about
>>>> >> what he had in mind. I still am interested, speaking for myself as a
>>>> >> potential buyer. I will watch for any response. Did anyone get
>>>> detailed
>>>> >> information on this boat?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I have suggested the value of baseline ad exposure. If nothing else,
>>>> >> targeted reinforcement to the boat show displays that are so
>>>> >> important.
>>>> >> Maybe followup visits by experienced skippers. I have been told by
>>>> >> one
>>>> of
>>>> >> our newer skippers that my 'hot dog hospitality' aboard Mary Jane at
>>>> >> the
>>>> '07
>>>> >> show tipped the sale toward his boat purchase with him and his wife.
>>>> BTW,
>>>> >> no commission provided or requested. The presence of skippers at the
>>>> show
>>>> >> is valuable - a third party evaluation of their own boat, and with
>>>> >> 'no
>>>> axe
>>>> >> to grind'. Consider it for yourself in support of Stan, as I did
>>>> >> twice.
>>>> >> You would have one very positive impression of how GB and a huge
>>>> >> number
>>>> of
>>>> >> other boat makers reach their customers. Our skippers who are so
>>>> willing to
>>>> >> give demos, whether at shows or not, are such valuable ambassadors
>>>> >> for
>>>> GB.
>>>> >> Having done it a number of times, it is really fun as well as being
>>>> >> productive. Try it, you'll like it! Let's be specific - Can some of
>>>> you
>>>> >> skipper demos at Annapoli!
>>>> >> s or St Pete or elsewhere?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Cutting to the chase, who has some real connections to options and
>>>> selling
>>>> >> /advertising connections that could help get Stan and GB out of this
>>>> 'black
>>>> >> hole' that the company appears to be in? It could be just a few
>>>> positive
>>>> >> levers to pull that would enable better results, even in our current
>>>> puuuny
>>>> >> economy. Who is willing to pen letters of endorsement to
>>>> prospects/suspects
>>>> >> that could tip the scales, one by one. Time to get the horses out
>>>> >> of
>>>> the
>>>> >> barn, guys.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Like Mark Twain or someone else once said, let's get the P in our
>>>> >> Pot!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Respectfully,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Art
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> >From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>>>> >> >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 11:02 AM
>>>> >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>> >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Rob,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Yep that pretty much covers it. Now what would the price point be
>>>> >> >for
>>>> such
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> >boat? I have the origional literature that came with my 71 and you
>>>> should
>>>> >> >see that show package special price!!!
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >John S.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Rob Lowe wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Drop the IMF, ditch the head, the water tank, the fancy motor
>>>> >> >> lift,
>>>> and
>>>> >> >> re-model the interior? Now you have my 1976 boat! I do have
>>>> >> >> battery
>>>> >> >> though. - rob
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> >> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>> >> >> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of John
>>>> Shulick
>>>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:52 AM
>>>> >> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Rick,
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I see your point clearly on the subject but I also see Davids idea
>>>> >> >> of
>>>> >> >> options to increase sales. How about dropping the IMF, ditch the
>>>> head,
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> on board water tank, the batteries, the fancy motor lift, re-model
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> interior and selling it as a "sport model" My wife and I live on
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> boat
>>>> >> >> almost every weekend and find a porta potty and crank lights
>>>> sufficient.
>>>> >> >> Being a camper before a sailor I have found the R22 to be a first
>>>> class
>>>> >> >> floating campground without the pain of hiking in. I also have had
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> perverse pleasure one weekend of sailing rings around a macgregor
>>>> >> >> 26
>>>> >> >> using
>>>> >> >> it like a no wake buoy as the kids pleaded at their father to make
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> mac
>>>> >> >> go faster. Racer/Cruiser is more fun than Cruiser/Racer. Even if
>>>> you're
>>>> >> >> not
>>>> >> >> racing its fun to be faster.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Respectfully submitted,
>>>> >> >> John Shulick
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Rick-139 wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> David,
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> I hate to be the wet blanket again. But racing sailboats is a
>>>> >> >>> whole
>>>> >> >>> 'nother
>>>> >> >>> market. The key to convincing a customer to buy a sailboat for
>>>> racing
>>>> >> >> is
>>>> >> >>> to
>>>> >> >>> convince him or her that they will have lots of other sailboats
>>>> >> >>> to
>>>> >> >> race
>>>> >> >>> against.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> In the one design game, it involves high volume production and a
>>>> >> >>> distribution system that can execute geographically concentrated
>>>> sales
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >>> support. J Boats has been successful doing that in the Great
>>>> >> >>> Lakes
>>>> >> >> with
>>>> >> >>> the
>>>> >> >>> J 22 and other longer models. Plus, J Boats has a respectable
>>>> history
>>>> >> >> of
>>>> >> >>> maintaining one design integrity.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Of course, there's always PHRF racing. But how many 20 - 25 foot
>>>> >> >> cruising
>>>> >> >>> sailboat owners are left with an interest in racing?
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Unlike 30 years ago, most people today who buy cruising or day
>>>> sailing
>>>> >> >>> boats
>>>> >> >>> in the low 20's length are first timers. From there, they either
>>>> drop
>>>> >> >> out
>>>> >> >>> or they move to larger boats more popular for cruising, racing or
>>>> >> >> both.
>>>> >> >>> Catalina and Hunter have turned the market into that by making
>>>> >> >>> cheap
>>>> >> >>> starter
>>>> >> >>> boats people can easily abandon for yachts. Stan's main problem
>>>> >> >>> is
>>>> he
>>>> >> >> now
>>>> >> >>> has a product that goes against the prevailing mindset that has
>>>> >> >> evolved
>>>> >> >>> for
>>>> >> >>> his market.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Did you read the article "The Little Boat that Could" in August
>>>> issue
>>>> >> >> of
>>>> >> >>> Sailing? The title itself is a reflection of that mindset. And
>>>> >> >> despite
>>>> >> >>> all
>>>> >> >>> kinds of compliments about the R22, the piece ends with: "More
>>>> >> >> important,
>>>> >> >>> where does one get a new tiller for a Rhodes 22?" That's some
>>>> insult
>>>> >> >> to a
>>>> >> >>> builder who has admirably supported his product for decades. But
>>>> >> >> again,
>>>> >> >>> that's part of the same mindset.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Rick
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:04 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>> Rick:
>>>> >> >>>> What I am saying is that this boat is unique and I can't go down
>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> local boatyard and get some of the major parts that I might
>>>> >> >>>> need.
>>>> >> >> Also,
>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>> >> >>>> can't send an email or make a phone call to the guy who built
>>>> >> >>>> the
>>>> >> >> boat at
>>>> >> >>>> most places and expect a response. That's probably worth
>>>> >> >>>> something
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> keep
>>>> >> >>>> the operation rolling as long as Stan does his part. I don't
>>>> >> >>>> think
>>>> >> >> you
>>>> >> >>>> ought to pay royalty/loyalty if you don't get anything for it.
>>>> >> >>>> If
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> group
>>>> >> >>>> feels we are getting something worth paying for, then I'm just
>>>> >> >> suggesting
>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> small stipend annually to Stan which if everyone participates
>>>> >> >>>> might
>>>> >> >> be a
>>>> >> >>>> better solution then a percentage up front facing new owners for
>>>> >> >>>> loyalty/royalty. The 5% on the seller side will figure into the
>>>> >> >> price
>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>> >> >>>> it gets the new owner out of any obligation to pay a
>>>> royalty/loyalty
>>>> >> >> up
>>>> >> >>>> front for two years. Then, continued association membership
>>>> >> >>>> will
>>>> >> >> require
>>>> >> >>>> the annual dues.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Imagine if you bought a Ford or Chevy used and then were asked
>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>> >> >> send a
>>>> >> >>>> 5%
>>>> >> >>>> fee to the factory. Nobody would... but this is not a Ford or
>>>> Chevy.
>>>> >> >> I
>>>> >> >>>> figure some type of ongoing support is probably reasonable as
>>>> >> >>>> long
>>>> as
>>>> >> >> we
>>>> >> >>>> get
>>>> >> >>>> good owner support and parts availability. For example, if
>>>> >> >>>> someone
>>>> >> >> comes
>>>> >> >>>> along and hits my rudder in the slip and I need a new one, there
>>>> >> >> ought to
>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>> >> >>>> a spare waiting at the factory to ship out. If someone blows a
>>>> sail
>>>> >> >>>> out,
>>>> >> >>>> there should be one ready to ship and the right color too. I
>>>> >> >>>> don't
>>>> >> >> know
>>>> >> >>>> if
>>>> >> >>>> this is the case at GBI because spare parts mean overhead and I
>>>> don't
>>>> >> >>>> know
>>>> >> >>>> how much overhead Stan is willing to carry. Maybe parts for
>>>> >> >> non-members
>>>> >> >>>> ought to carry a premium that members don't have to pay-so
>>>> >> >>>> another
>>>> >> >> added
>>>> >> >>>> incentive to be one of the family.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> I hear what you are saying about the market. Long term, owners
>>>> >> >>>> are
>>>> >> >> not
>>>> >> >>>> going to be the ones to keep GBI afloat. You have got to get
>>>> >> >>>> new
>>>> >> >>>> customers
>>>> >> >>>> through the door. There have been a lot of good suggestions
>>>> >> >>>> given
>>>> by
>>>> >> >> a
>>>> >> >>>> lot
>>>> >> >>>> of experienced people on the list. My experiences with family
>>>> >> >>>> run
>>>> >> >>>> businesses are that we are very happy to take your money but you
>>>> can
>>>> >> >> keep
>>>> >> >>>> your advice to yourself. However, Stan seems open to some
>>>> >> >> suggestions.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Stan has an excellent product, more people need to know about it
>>>> >> >>>> as
>>>> >> >>>> someone
>>>> >> >>>> has mentioned. A new boat is becoming cost prohibitive for
>>>> >> >>>> most,
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> recycling is a good second market but I think you need a "less
>>>> >> >> frills"
>>>> >> >>>> model
>>>> >> >>>> to get younger couples through the doors. You would have to be
>>>> able
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> build it with the same quality, using the same molds at an
>>>> attractive
>>>> >> >>>> price
>>>> >> >>>> point and I don't know if that is possible. I thought maybe a
>>>> >> >> stripped
>>>> >> >>>> down
>>>> >> >>>> racing version might be a solution. Racers don't need much down
>>>> >> >> below
>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>> >> >>>> will pay for quality above. The Rhodes is faster then a
>>>> >> >>>> Catalina
>>>> to
>>>> >> >>>> being
>>>> >> >>>> with and that would appeal to a lot of people.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>> >> >>>> David
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:28:36 -0400
>>>> >> >>>> From: Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint
>>>> >> >>>> (continued)
>>>> >> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> >> >>>> Message-ID:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> <52e9a140907261428v6feebf53l4e923711b987ec30 at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> David,
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> When I was considering buying my R22, the PO said, "I can give
>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> home
>>>> >> >>>> phone number of the guy who makes the boat and he will talk to
>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>> at
>>>> >> >> any
>>>> >> >>>> time." Of course, that tilted me to buy his boat and
>>>> >> >>>> subsequently
>>>> >> >> buy
>>>> >> >>>> many
>>>> >> >>>> things from Stan.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Are you suggesting Stan discontinues this attractive offering in
>>>> the
>>>> >> >>>> shrunken marketplace for pocket cruiser sailboats? I think it
>>>> >> >>>> will
>>>> >> >> just
>>>> >> >>>> turn customers toward high volume boats where technical
>>>> >> >>>> information
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >>>> spare parts are readily available.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Rick
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 4:49 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> > Stan:
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Thank you for your insight into the business. I dare say that
>>>> most
>>>> >> >>>> > sailboat
>>>> >> >>>> > owners don't get the inside track on happenings at the
>>>> >> >>>> > factory;
>>>> if
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> > factory is even still in business that is.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > I want to comment on the loyalty/royalty program concerning
>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>> >> >> Rhodes.
>>>> >> >>>> My
>>>> >> >>>> > experience in boat ownership over the years is that a used
>>>> >> >>>> > boat
>>>> >> >>>> purchaser
>>>> >> >>>> > always spends the maximum funds set aside for the purchase.
>>>> Either
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> > purchase price and the taxes consume the entire amount or the
>>>> >> >>>> > new
>>>> >> >> owner
>>>> >> >>>> > takes any funds left and applies them to things the boat
>>>> >> >>>> > needs.
>>>> >> >> And we
>>>> >> >>>> all
>>>> >> >>>> > know that used boats need something all the time.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > It is a bit of a sticky wicket let's say, to request from a
>>>> >> >>>> > new
>>>> >> >> owner 5
>>>> >> >>>> %
>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>> >> >>>> > the purchase price be paid to GBI when they have probably
>>>> >> >>>> > spent
>>>> >> >> more
>>>> >> >>>> money
>>>> >> >>>> > then they intended to begin with. The Rhodes 22 is the top of
>>>> the
>>>> >> >>>> scale
>>>> >> >>>> in
>>>> >> >>>> > 22' boats and used prices are not cheap. We see it all the
>>>> >> >>>> > time
>>>> on
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> > list... Folks are interested in the Rhodes but they are
>>>> >> >>>> > trying
>>>> to
>>>> >> >>>> purchase
>>>> >> >>>> > it on a "Catalina" budget; so they "lurk" on the list either
>>>> saving
>>>> >> >> up
>>>> >> >>>> > their
>>>> >> >>>> > cash or hoping to see a cheap boat come up for sale whereby
>>>> >> >>>> > they
>>>> >> >>>> promptly
>>>> >> >>>> > go
>>>> >> >>>> > off-list and complete the transaction.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > You will remember in my case, that I sent GBI a check for $
>>>> 200.00
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> cover
>>>> >> >>>> > the promotional materials you sent me-but that was not 5% of
>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>> >> >> price
>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>> >> >>>> > paid. In the meantime, I have enjoyed the technical support
>>>> >> >>>> > that
>>>> I
>>>> >> >>>> have
>>>> >> >>>> > received as a member of the list from the owners and from
>>>> yourself.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>>> That
>>>> >> >>>> > is
>>>> >> >>>> > worth something, even though I didn't realize it in the
>>>> beginning.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>>> This
>>>> >> >>>> > boat and this list are pretty unique to the boating world.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > I propose and this will make some people on this list unhappy,
>>>> >> >>>> > in
>>>> >> >> fact,
>>>> >> >>>> > very
>>>> >> >>>> > unhappy.... An Owner's association with an annual fee. For
>>>> >> >>>> > that
>>>> >> >> annual
>>>> >> >>>> > fee,
>>>> >> >>>> > you have got to provide something however. Which is another
>>>> >> >> problem
>>>> >> >>>> with
>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> > royalty fee upfront; people always need to feel that they are
>>>> >> >> getting
>>>> >> >>>> > something for their money. In this case, for the annual
>>>> >> >> association
>>>> >> >>>> fee:
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Admission to the list
>>>> >> >>>> > Technical support either from members or the factory
>>>> >> >>>> > Availability and a price list of parts, sails, etc. that is
>>>> >> >>>> > kept
>>>> up
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> date
>>>> >> >>>> > so I can purchase it from you if I need something.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Except for the parts and prices, this is pretty much what we
>>>> >> >>>> > are
>>>> >> >> doing
>>>> >> >>>> > already. Maybe you could come up with some member specials on
>>>> >> >> pricing
>>>> >> >>>> from
>>>> >> >>>> > time to time for sails or parts or write an occasional article
>>>> that
>>>> >> >>>> only
>>>> >> >>>> > members would get. I don't want to burden you with a bunch of
>>>> >> >> extra
>>>> >> >>>> work,
>>>> >> >>>> > but there needs to be something unique about membership. In
>>>> >> >>>> > this
>>>> >> >> way,
>>>> >> >>>> the
>>>> >> >>>> > new owner would feel they are getting something and it would
>>>> >> >> generate
>>>> >> >>>> > revenue for you over the longer term. As part of the
>>>> >> >>>> > membership,
>>>> >> >> if we
>>>> >> >>>> > agree to give you 5% of the selling price when we sell, then I
>>>> >> >> don't
>>>> >> >>>> have
>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> > problem with it; especially if the list helps my estate sell
>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>> >> >> boat.
>>>> >> >>>> > I'll
>>>> >> >>>> > even stipulate it in my will. I figure if I owe a "loyalty
>>>> >> >>>> > fee",
>>>> >> >> it is
>>>> >> >>>> > probably to the list members who have taken their time and
>>>> >> >>>> > been
>>>> so
>>>> >> >>>> helpful
>>>> >> >>>> > over the years. If paying you a "royalty" fee helps keep GBI
>>>> >> >>>> > in
>>>> >> >>>> business
>>>> >> >>>> > then that helps them and you. As a seller, if I pay 5% then
>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>> >> >> gets my
>>>> >> >>>> > buyer on the list free for two years. Then he/she can do the
>>>> >> >>>> responsible
>>>> >> >>>> > thing and start paying their own royalty/loyalty dues.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > The other situation which started the discussion in the
>>>> >> >>>> > beginning
>>>> >> >> has
>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>> >> >>>> do
>>>> >> >>>> > with after-market products or other parts unique to the
>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes.
>>>> If
>>>> >> >> a
>>>> >> >>>> > member
>>>> >> >>>> > has an after-market item to sell to the list which is unique
>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>> the
>>>> >> >>>> Rhodes
>>>> >> >>>> > and/or would normally be available from GBI for sale, then
>>>> >> >>>> > he/she
>>>> >> >> goes
>>>> >> >>>> > through you. They can advertise it and discuss it; but I buy
>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>> >> >> from
>>>> >> >>>> you
>>>> >> >>>> > after you have added your mark up or it cannot be advertised
>>>> >> >>>> > on
>>>> the
>>>> >> >>>> > member's
>>>> >> >>>> > list by another member or by a third party. Simple as that.
>>>> They
>>>> >> >> are
>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> > supplier of General Boats and you are the distributor to me.
>>>> >> >>>> Obviously,
>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>> >> >>>> > list membership information is kept proprietary to prevent
>>>> >> >>>> > direct
>>>> >> >>>> marketing
>>>> >> >>>> > by a third party. If a member tries to go behind your back...
>>>> >> >>>> > we
>>>> >> >> can
>>>> >> >>>> take
>>>> >> >>>> > care of that. If something comes up for sale on the
>>>> >> >>>> > open-market
>>>> >> >> that
>>>> >> >>>> is
>>>> >> >>>> > unique to the Rhodes 22 and there are legal issues, then that
>>>> >> >>>> > is
>>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> > discussion for lawyers and not for this forum.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Right now MJM is administering the list. I think he or
>>>> >> >>>> > whomever
>>>> >> >> takes
>>>> >> >>>> on
>>>> >> >>>> > those duties gets their membership free.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > I hope you will take these suggestions under advisement and if
>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>> >> >> is of
>>>> >> >>>> > interest, let us know what you think the annual membership fee
>>>> >> >> should
>>>> >> >>>> be.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > For everyone else, let the flaming begin.... But just keep in
>>>> mind
>>>> >> >>>> what
>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>> >> >>>> > purpose is here. Trying to come up with something palatable
>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>> >> >> help
>>>> >> >>>> GBI
>>>> >> >>>> > now
>>>> >> >>>> > and us in the long run.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > David
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > PS:
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Other thoughts: The Rhodes 22 website is "technically" one of
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> best
>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>> >> >>>> > have ever seen as far as the boat information goes. However,
>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>> >> >> needs
>>>> >> >>>> some
>>>> >> >>>> > polish to be a more effective marketing tool. More timely
>>>> >> >> information
>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>> >> >>>> > more emphasis on the recycle program and availability of used
>>>> boats
>>>> >> >>>> comes
>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>> >> >>>> > mind since new boat sales are down. Also, have you ever
>>>> considered
>>>> >> >> a
>>>> >> >>>> new
>>>> >> >>>> > "entry level" boat without all the bells and whistles which
>>>> >> >> someone
>>>> >> >>>> could
>>>> >> >>>> > purchase at a bit lower price? You've talked about a racer
>>>> before.
>>>> >> >>>> Could
>>>> >> >>>> > you come up with something without having to have new
>>>> >> >> molds-marketed as
>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> > "Sport" Rhodes 22? Lower the interior weight, put a standard
>>>> mast
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >>>> > racing sails on it and a spinaker. Catalina has a "sport
>>>> >> >>>> > model"
>>>> >> >> and it
>>>> >> >>>> > does
>>>> >> >>>> > pretty well I think. Just some ideas I have batted around. dc
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:46:52 -0400
>>>> >> >>>> > From: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>
>>>> >> >>>> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] general boat's complaint (continued)
>>>> >> >>>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> >> >>>> > Message-ID: <038FA83D95464CCFB609CA722206B2D8 at rhodes>
>>>> >> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Rose and I want to thank you all for indulging GB in the use
>>>> >> >>>> > of
>>>> >> >> your
>>>> >> >>>> forum
>>>> >> >>>> > on an issue that is so basic to GB.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > We want to thank those that take issue with our position but
>>>> >> >> attempt to
>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>> >> >>>> > evenhanded. (If academically interested, we can provide
>>>> >> >>>> > exhibits
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >>>> > witnesses that prove the accuracy of our facts.)
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > We are empathetic with those who chafe at this sort of thing
>>>> >> >>>> > and
>>>> >> >> remain
>>>> >> >>>> > silent - in our younger days we probably would have done the
>>>> same.
>>>> >> >> It
>>>> >> >>>> was
>>>> >> >>>> > not until 50 that we adopted our tribe's slogan of "never
>>>> >> >>>> > again"
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >>>> took
>>>> >> >>>> > on anyone who wronged us: A policeman. A lawyer. a station
>>>> wagon
>>>> >> >>>> full
>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>> >> >>>> > nuns (just kidding about the station wagon), a giant
>>>> >> >>>> > corporation
>>>> to
>>>> >> >>>> > docketing at the US Supreme Court. We prevailed in all these
>>>> pro
>>>> >> >> se
>>>> >> >>>> > actions simply because we do not complain unless the facts and
>>>> >> >> logic
>>>> >> >>>> are
>>>> >> >>>> > solidly on our side - but we digress.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > And, in particular, we want to thank those who understand the
>>>> >> >> logical
>>>> >> >>>> side
>>>> >> >>>> > of our position and offered suggestions.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the Loyalty/Royalty program: Its reasoning
>>>> seems
>>>> >> >> so
>>>> >> >>>> > correct that it is hard to comprehend dissent. Those thinking
>>>> >> >>>> > us
>>>> >> >> crazy
>>>> >> >>>> for
>>>> >> >>>> > such radical thinking have to sit in this chair for just one
>>>> >> >>>> > day.
>>>> >> >>>> > Interestingly, dissenters enjoy products from many segments of
>>>> >> >> industry
>>>> >> >>>> who
>>>> >> >>>> > have already worked out such support programs, yet these
>>>> dissenters
>>>> >> >>>> seem
>>>> >> >>>> to
>>>> >> >>>> > be drawing their own grandfather clause line as to which
>>>> industries
>>>> >> >>>> should
>>>> >> >>>> > not be entitled to residuals on their efforts. Those in this
>>>> >> >> group
>>>> >> >>>> have
>>>> >> >>>> > but to request and we will expand on the good sense of this
>>>> >> >> program.
>>>> >> >>>> It
>>>> >> >>>> > has been emotionally gratifying seeing former members of the
>>>> >> >>>> > "You
>>>> >> >> must
>>>> >> >>>> be
>>>> >> >>>> > crazy" society, when, becoming members of the "List" family,
>>>> seeing
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >>>> > light and converting.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > Re the issue of the 50 years creating a unique product now
>>>> >> >>>> > having
>>>> >> >>>> others
>>>> >> >>>> > take bites of its parts for their unilateral gain, if not
>>>> resolved,
>>>> >> >>>> will
>>>> >> >>>> > come home to bite us all. ( When I walked out of the
>>>> >> >>>> > hallowed
>>>> >> >> halls
>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>> >> >>>> > ole
>>>> >> >>>> > PU I vowed not to go into business because I could not stand
>>>> >> >>>> > the
>>>> >> >> ethics
>>>> >> >>>> I
>>>> >> >>>> > saw, and assumed, had to go with that territory. But it was
>>>> >> >>>> pre-ordained;
>>>> >> >>>> > I
>>>> >> >>>> > ended up spending most of my life a driving capitalist. And
>>>> >> >>>> > it
>>>> >> >> has
>>>> >> >>>> been
>>>> >> >>>> a
>>>> >> >>>> > blast, for me and my partner of 60 years - because we made the
>>>> >> >> making
>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>> >> >>>> > money our secondary goal. (The effects of that kind of
>>>> religious
>>>> >> >>>> fervor
>>>> >> >>>> > has surprisingly turned out to be rough on our opponents.)
>>>> There
>>>> >> >> are
>>>> >> >>>> ways
>>>> >> >>>> > we can go to stop the taking of free bites of the profitable
>>>> parts
>>>> >> >> side
>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>> >> >>>> > GB's business::
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > When we sold Venture Sailboats (Macgregor), dealers could buy
>>>> sails
>>>> >> >>>> > elsewhere and make an additional profit on Roger's creation at
>>>> >> >> Roger's
>>>> >> >>>> > expense. Roger, who graduated at the top of his class at
>>>> Stamford,
>>>> >> >>>> simply
>>>> >> >>>> > raised the price of his boat and included sails. Being the
>>>> >> >>>> > tough
>>>> >> >>>> business
>>>> >> >>>> > man he is, he did it without notice and dealers had to eat
>>>> >> >>>> > their
>>>> >> >> sail
>>>> >> >>>> > inventories they bought elsewhere. We are slow learners but
>>>> could
>>>> >> >>>> price
>>>> >> >>>> > Rhodes sales to include a part an outside seller has latched
>>>> onto.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>>> Or,
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply be unresponsive to boat owners who purchase
>>>> parts,
>>>> >> >>>> unique
>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>> >> >>>> > the Rhodes design, from others in competition with GB or who
>>>> >> >>>> > fail
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> honor
>>>> >> >>>> > agreements with GB. We inherently do not like this
>>>> >> >>>> > retaliatory
>>>> >> >> type
>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>> >> >>>> > solution, but it is a solution. Or
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > We could simply close shop and that would close the market for
>>>> >> >>>> unauthorized
>>>> >> >>>> > parts vendors. This "cutting off ones nose" solution is not
>>>> >> >>>> > our
>>>> >> >>>> choice.
>>>> >> >>>> > However, not taking on rogue suppliers, eating away at the
>>>> >> >>>> > life
>>>> >> >> cash
>>>> >> >>>> flow
>>>> >> >>>> > of the company, makes it an inevitable solution.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > In an effort to avoid any of the above solutions, based on the
>>>> >> >> thinking
>>>> >> >>>> of
>>>> >> >>>> > List members in this particular complaint of GB vs. Art C, we
>>>> have
>>>> >> >> some
>>>> >> >>>> > proposals that we will present to the List next week for your
>>>> >> >>>> appreciated
>>>> >> >>>> > feedback. The pro bono time we are having to devote to the
>>>> >> >> problems
>>>> >> >>>> and
>>>> >> >>>> > questions of private sale Rhodes is becoming so overwhelming
>>>> >> >>>> > (and
>>>> >> >> we
>>>> >> >>>> hate
>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>> >> >>>> > be mean spirited enough to tell them where to go) that we just
>>>> >> >> can't
>>>> >> >>>> seem
>>>> >> >>>> > to
>>>> >> >>>> > manage all of this issue in one sitting.
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> > ss
>>>> >> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>>> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>> >> >>>> > list
>>>> go
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> >>>> > __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> >> >>>> go
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> >> >>> go
>>>> to
>>>> >> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> >>> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> --
>>>> >> >> View this message in context:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660
>>>> >> >> 048p24697834.html
>>>> >> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> >> >> go
>>>> to
>>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>> >> >> go
>>>> to
>>>> >> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >--
>>>> >> >View this message in context:
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/general-boat%27s-complaint-%28continued%29-tp24660048p24700483.html
>>>> >> >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >__________________________________________________
>>>> >> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>> >> >to
>>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> >__________________________________________________
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>>> >>
>>>> >__________________________________________________
>>>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> >__________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
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