[Rhodes22-list] Off-List Re: advice needed from litigious Rhodies
Arthur H. Czerwonky
czerwonky at earthlink.net
Wed Nov 4 21:54:31 EST 2009
Mike,
I don't disagree with caution. "When the going gets rough..." is simply too late. The ballast tank is not operated like you suggest. The gate is closed after it is filled and after it is emptied, never is the tank partially filled. It is meant to be filled long before getting underway and never when underway (the tank would never physically fill), often when tied to the dock, anytime when floating stability is prudent, and it will act as if solid.
If the going is or will be rough I will not be underway in a Mac or a Rhodes - some define that wisely as 15+knots. If that means striking the sails and motoring in, so be it. None of us is a candidate for the "Survivor" series. I have had my furling system foul, and it is most probable at the worst possible time - the line can easily become bound and immobile on the drum under very high wind conditions - how do you reduce the sail in this circumstance without going up on deck? So every system can be foiled. The filled and sealed water balast is essentially immune to most like conditions unless the hull is broken.
The point about a potential IMF Mac is not to do it, rather to evaluate it fairly, just like a Catalina, or a Hunter, or an O'Day. I personally have no benefit from the outcome that we do not share as a group - we instead want GB to benefit.
I wish we could have grabbed a beer at Annapolis.
Art
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Michael D. Weisner"
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 9:02 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>
>Art,
>
>We are talking about safety at sea and lives are at stake. It has been
>shown that nothing is foolproof or idiot-proof and that water ballast
>systems are very easy to operate in ideal conditions. When the going gets
>rough, the last thing I would want to fool with is trying to fill the
>ballast tank. That's why we have furling systems, so that it is easier to
>sail safely.
>
>The problems with water ballast in salt water environments are even worse!
>Not only is there corrosive salt in the ballast but there is plenty of
>sealife as well (yuck!)
>
>BTW, there have been many interesting disasters using water ballast
>including ferries, an NCL cruise ship a few years ago and one of the most
>famous, the Eastland, a large pleasure cruiser that became unstable while
>still moored to the dock and rolled over.
>
>Solid ballast is something that you can count on, all of the time. Keep the
>water under the keel.
>
>Mike
>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>Nissequogue River, NY
>
>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:39 PM
>> Mike,
>>
>> Agreed, the ballast needs to be either full or empty. Macgregor has a
>> foolproof test, even for dumbies. Feel at the top of the ballast tank for
>> the top of the water fill. Difficult to screw that one up...
>>
>> Art
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: "Michael D. Weisner"
>>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 6:00 PM
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>
>>>Lee,
>>>
>>>Yep, 1400 lbs of ballast is 1400 lbs of ballast except when it moves. The
>>>major problem with water is that it "sloshes", for lack of a better word
>>>and
>>>lead or cement do not (at least at normal temps.) Some of the mishaps
>>>with
>>>cruise ships and freighters were due to movement of cargo or water ballast
>>>as the vessel rolled (heeling in sailboats.) If the ballast compartment
>>>is
>>>not completely full, disaster can strike.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>Nissequogue River, NY
>>>
>>>From: "KUHN, LELAND" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:08 PM
>>>> Rick,
>>>>
>>>> 1,400 pounds (or l,l50 pounds)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.macgregor26.com/water_ballast/water_ballast.htm
>>>>
>>>> is the same weight no matter if it's lead or water. The only real
>>>> difference is that lead takes up eleven times less space than water.
>>>> Our Rhodes sailboats have 700 pounds of ballast. The lower the weight
>>>> the more the righting capability but weight is weight no matter if it's
>>>> water or lead. Water ballast works, it just takes up eleven times more
>>>> space than lead.
>>>>
>>>> I welcome disagreement from the physicists and engineers out there.
>>>>
>>>> Lee
>>>> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
>>>> Kent Island, MD
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Arthur H.
>>>> Czerwonky
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:28 PM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>>
>>>> Rick,
>>>>
>>>> Consider that the water adds 1400# to the ballast, other stability
>>>> questions not considered. Validating the stability issue would be easy
>>>> - with mast and sail and ballast in place, pull the mast toward the
>>>> water and determine at what point the tension on the mast line zeroes
>>>> out. If the tension remains, the boat will have a natural positive
>>>> righting moment.
>>>>
>>>> This does not allow for the dumbie who, like others before, operate the
>>>> boat improperly or who cannot read the directions.
>>>>
>>>> Macgregor will sell the new spreader assembly so that the mast can have
>>>> the stays properly aligned, GB might obtain for free as a professional
>>>> courtesy fm MacG.
>>>>
>>>> Make sense?
>>>>
>>>> Art
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: Rick
>>>>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:06 PM
>>>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>>>
>>>>>Art,
>>>>>
>>>>>An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.
>>>>>
>>>>>Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."
>>>>>
>>>>>Rick
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky
>>>> <CZERWONKY at EARTHLINK.NET
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best
>>>> judge.
>>>>>> BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have
>>>> posted
>>>>>> pictures and info. I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
>>>>>> MacGregor to test for stability. Anyone who has had the thrill of
>>>> raising a
>>>>>> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand
>>>> the
>>>>>> value in this. There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst
>>>> at this
>>>>>> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF. I mention this knowing
>>>> that
>>>>>> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.
>>>> Hopefully this
>>>>>> is not true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >From: Rick
>>>>>> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
>>>>>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Stan,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.
>>>> How
>>>>>> >much for the suped up Catalina?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Rick
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base we
>>>> went
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> >> recycling Rhodes
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects
>>>> who
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes
>>>> 27
>>>>>> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart. we
>>>> are
>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid: IMF, combo
>>>> keel/cb,
>>>>>> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
>>>>>> upgraded.
>>>>>> >> Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ss
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
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