[Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole - and Stan's info
The Rhodes 22 Email List
rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Tue Jan 20 21:53:32 EST 2015
I have removed the compression post and bulkhead twice now and currently
have both removed for my reconstruction. You might need to lift the coach
roof slightly to get them back in as they are snug but so long as there is
no pressure from the mast - I assume the rig is down- I have seen no
indication of problems.
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes 22 Email
List
Sent: January-20-15 7:44 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole - and Stan's info
Floor is bleached clean and white. I have to remove the horizontal
"stringer" /rib. It looked good but while i was in there i pushed my pencil
right through it. I have the 1/2" pt plywood for it too.
My long stringers are cut, fit perfectly and look good.
One question i have is when i remove support from the compression post and
main bulkhead, will it fall down or is it attached? I did notice a little
key motise and tenon in the bottom of the post to stabilize it. Thats
interesting but i will have to cut it with a coping saw. I will make a
little socket for it after replacing the floor.
Thoughts?
> On Jan 17, 2015, at 4:40 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
>
> Graham, et al,
> The stringer construction I described was in a 1974 hull.
> Todd T.
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with [1]mail.com Mail. Please excuse my
> brevity.
>
> The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Rick.
> I didn't think this would be such a difficult question but given
> that a
> number of us are in the process of rebuilding the floor structure
> and others
> have had to do so in the past, it would be great to get a
> definitive answer
> about how the boats of different vintage were built, or should be
> built.
> I think, however, I have found my answer from a message that Stan
> posted on
> June 5, 2013 with the subject "Educational Rebuttal" in which he
> very
> helpfully detailed much of the evolution of the R22 over the years.
> Here is
> the section of that message dealing with hull stiffness and floor
> stringers:
> "In those days of simplified pricing, it was by the pound - glass
> and resin
> used. The lighter the boat the more competitive, price wise. The
> Ventures
> came along and made this building, an art form. In water it did not
> seem to
> matter - on land the art form had its weak points, particularly on
> trailers.
> In my fifties standing in the lazaret, feeling the flexing hull
> bottom
> underfoot, was unnerving. Molding the Rhodes keel as an integrated
> part of
> the hull itself, made the Rhodes mid-ship bottom, naturally stiff,
> whereas
> competitive boats bolted on their keels. Few boats had flotation.
> Those
> that did accomplished it with chunks of bought foam planks, as we
> ourselves
> did - in our early days; until it dawned on us to marry the two by
> molding
> the foam to fit the hull, then glass it in to stiffen the cockpit
> and bow
> sections of the boat bottom. It also dawned on us that a modest
> redesign of
> the floor unit stringers and their glassing in, added more bottom
> stiffness.
> By the time we moved the making of the hulls to our own shop, we
> had matured
> enough to have given up on the price wars. We started to lay up the
> port
> side hull glass so it continued on across the bottom, and the
> starboard side
> glass lay up so it too continued on across the bottom. With the
> hull sides
> extraordinarily stiff from the Rhodes unusual compound curved
> flared hull
> shape, now its bottom was extraordinarily stiff from being twice
> the
> thickness of the sides. The hulls we build today in our own
> facility are so
> extraordinarily stiff that we lift the boats by their bow eye and
> transom
> eyes and boat shape shows no deflection. This amazing difference
> from our
> early boats /is/ probably overkill because I do not know of any
> other
> builder who moves their boats around supported at only its two
> extremes."
> So it seems that hull stiffness is a good thing and that older
> boats might
> benefit from glassed-in stringers more than the newer ones.
> I wish Stan would write the book he keeps musing about. He is a
> great writer
> and has a story to tell that few could equal.
> Graham
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes
> 22 Email
> List
> Sent: January-16-15 2:19 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
> Graham,
> Glassing stringers to the hull is common in the industry. The resin
> used to
> fill the glass mat is the same resin used to build the outer hull,
> thus
> matching elasticity. Often the purpose of the wood is just to
> establish
> form while glassing. I helped a friend cut into a stringer of his
> 25 year
> old Jeneau to box around space needed for a new A/C compressor. The
> wood
> had turned to cardboard, but the stringer was fine.
> In Todd's case, I expect his stringers are attached not with epoxy,
> but with
> an adhesive for that purpose, like 3M 5200.
> Rick
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 12:40 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>> Rick:
>>
>> Are not the stringers glassed to the hull already? Certainly mine
> were
>> so I have assumed that was the original construction. If not, I
> would
>> like to know how they were installed.
>>
>> You are right about sealing all holes with epoxy.
>>
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The
> Rhodes 22
>> Email List
>> Sent: January-15-15 8:10 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
>>
>> Graham,
>>
>> I don't think any quality boat builder has ever bonded a
> fiberglass
>> hull to stringers with epoxy. Stringers are rigid, fiberglass
> hulls are
> flexible.
>> Since epoxy cannot absorb flex, the hull would be prone to crack
> along
>> the edges of the stringers bonded with epoxy.
>>
>> Another caveat on epoxy is using it to coat wood. Anything that
> keeps
>> water out, keeps water in. If you coat stringers with epoxy, you
> will
>> need to follow the same sealing protocol when drilling holes into
>> epoxied stringers as you do with the wood cored deck. It would be
>> more convenient to coat your new stringers with a bilge
> primer/sealer.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 1:39 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob:
>>> I think any of your alternatives might work but when I install
> mine
>>> next summer I intend to use epoxy with fibreglass tape for
> these
> reasons:
>>> 1, I have done a lot of work with epoxy and am comfortable
> using it
>>> and I have it along with the fillers on hand, 2, wood
> adequately
>>> encapsulated in epoxy (3+ coats) should be impervious to rot
>>> permitting the use of less expensive wood, 3, bonded to the
> hull the
>>> stringers would add very significantly to the rigidity of the
> hull,
>>> and 4, the stringers will not flex and therefore will not come
> loose.
>>>
>>> I don't know how important point three is but given that the
>>> original stringers were boned to the hull with cloth and
> polyester
>>> resin, I would feel safer doing the same. Polyester is the
> other
>>> choice. It is much cheaper than epoxy but not a strong and not
>>> impervious to water vapour.
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The
> Rhodes
>>> 22 Email List
>>> Sent: January-15-15 1:05 PM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
>>>
>>> Ok let me stir the pot again. Should i bed my new stringers in
> 5200
>>> or epoxy them in or fiberglass tape and resin??
>>> Thoughts anyone?
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>>> On Jan 15, 2015, at 12:07 PM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 5200 is also permanent! Don't use it if you think you might
> ever
>>>> want or need to remove it.
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of The Rhodes
>>>> 22 Email List
>>>> Sent: January-15-15 10:04 AM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
>>>>
>>>> Bob,
>>>>
>>>> 3M 5200 is an adhesive, not a sealant. A silicone sealant
> will
>>>> give you better results.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 9:55 AM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graham: Yes that is what i meant. These boats have a
> notoriously
>>>>> leaky hull to deck joint. Stan explained it was due to the workers
>>>>> ineptitude he had applying the joint caulk during
> those
> years.
>>>>> They probably caulked the seam after the hull and deck were
>>>>> fastened instead of caulking both sides then putting the
> sandwich
>>>>> together and just
>>>> wiping away the excess.
>>>>> I am going to remove the rail, clean out as much old caulk
> as i
>>>>> can and then seal it with 3m 5200 and re-attach the rub
> rail. It
>>>>> shouldnt leak any more. I did this once before on an 80's
> era
>>>>> boat and it worked
>>>> great.
>>>>> Shortcuts were happening in every industry back then.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2015, at 9:43 AM, The Rhodes 22 Email List <
>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I doubt that it is the rub rail that is leaking. If it is leaking
>>>>>> through the screw holes you might get away with
> just
>>>>>> removing the screws one at a time and reinserting with
> sealant.
>>>>>> It is more likely that the leak is
>>>>> behind
>>>>>> the rub rail where the deck and hull join.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
> The
>>>>>> Rhodes
>>>>>> 22
>>>>> Email
>>>>>> List
>>>>>> Sent: January-15-15 6:56 AM
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Soul of the sole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Rummy.
>>>>>> Yes i already have the bleach and scrub brush out there. I
> am
>>>>>> going to
>>>>> do
>>>>>> the rub rail first though. Very leaky boat!
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2015, at 5:06 AM, The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure you are aware of this,but the photo shows a great
> deal
>>>>>>> of
>>>> mold.
>>>>>>> You might want to clean the area really good with a soapy bleach
>>>>>>> solution prior to installing the new stringers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rummy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a message dated 1/14/2015 9:29:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2]
> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/201
>>>>>>> 50
>>>>>>> 11
>>>>>>> 4/6
>>>>>>> 474727
>>>>>>> 0/attachment.JPG
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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> and
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>>>>>>
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