[Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection

[Graham Stewart]

I like to use a step bit to gradually drill a larger hole in metal without having to change bits.

Graham Stewart
Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
Kingston Ontario


-----Original Message-----
From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Peter Nyberg
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:59 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection

Starting with smaller holes and gradually expanding to larger holes is the approach I usually take.  I don’t know that it actually matters.  

Using a drill press may help to positions holes more accurately, other than that, I haven’t noticed that it matters much over using a hand drill.

—Peter

> On Sep 10, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Jesse Shumaker <jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I can confirm what Peter mentioned since I recently ordered mast organizer
> model DH288
> <https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=19&familyName=Halyard+Organizer+Plates>
> in
> preparation for fall projects.  I attached a photo of the one that I
> received in the mail.  Sorry for the poor lighting in the photo.  It occurs
> to me that I'll need to drill holes to fit the existing pattern on the
> tabernacle.    It appears I may want to use a drill press and progressively
> larger bits for that given the strength of the material described in
> Roger's earlier post in this thread.
> 
> Jesse Shumaker
> S/V Zephyr
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:56 AM Peter Nyberg <peter at sunnybeeches.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> I avoided having to cut off the tab by mounting the organizer backwards,
>> with the tab on the forward side.  I don’t use the tab, but it’s not in the
>> way there.
>> 
>> The halyard organizer, for those who might be interested, came from Dwyer (
>> www.dwyermast.com).  I just took a look at their current selection of
>> organizers, and none appear to have a tab with a hole for mounting a block
>> at the centerline; only port and starboard.
>> 
>> Peter Nyberg
>> Coventry, CT
>> s/v Silverheels (1988/2016)
>> 
>>> On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:40 AM, ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Graham,
>>> 
>>> I actually have a modified version of Peter Nyberg’s mast step
>> organizer.  I simply cut off the tab on the aft side so it wouldn’t
>> interfere with the pop top slider.  Unfortunately, the 300 series stainless
>> alloys have a strong tendency to work harden when they are cold worked.  It
>> takes a good metal cutting band saw with plenty of coolant to cut thru the
>> work hardened bent tab.  Then, a bench grinder and fine emory cloth will
>> clean up the cut and round off the sharp edges.  Having the anchor points
>> on the port, starboard, and front sides of the mast is very handy.
>>> 
>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 10, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Roger: Thanks for the thorough response. It all makes sense. I wonder
>> why I didn't have that ring installed on my boat. A second option I am
>> considering is to install a mast step organizer such as the one that Peter
>> Nyberg installed on his boat. I don't have a Cunningham on my boat. I would
>> be interested in seeing what others have installed if anyone has pictures.
>>>> 
>>>> Graham Stewart
>>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
>>>> Kingston Ontario
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>> Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:15 AM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
>>>> 
>>>> Graham,
>>>> 
>>>> Although, at first glance, the present pop top slider design may look
>> sort of crude, it’s actually pretty elegant.  Remember, there are 2 pieces
>> of tackle that have their lower anchor points on the pop top slider, the
>> boom vang and the Cunningham.  The snap shackle for the Cunningham actually
>> attaches to the eye strap and the snap shackle for the boom vang actually
>> attaches to the ring.  This way, the force from the Cunningham, which is
>> vertical directly up the mast, is kept as close as possible to the mast.
>> The force from the Cunningham on the two machine screws attaching the eye
>> strap to the pop top slider is almost entirely shear, which is the most
>> mechanically efficient way to load a threaded connection.  In addition, by
>> attaching the Cunningham to the eye strap vs. the ring, the clam cleat on
>> the block automatically faces aft, thus facilitating ease of use from the
>> cockpit.  Similarly, attaching the snap shackle for the boom vang onto the
>> ring vs. the eye strap, automatically positions the clam cleat downward and
>> moves it aft slightly, both of which help prevent the two pieces of tackle
>> from getting fouled up on each other and makes the boom vang easier to use
>> from the cockpit.
>>>> 
>>>> If the ring were simply welded onto the pop top slider, I think it
>> might interfere with the pop top raising and lowering process.  i.e.  When
>> the pop top is raised, the 1st step is to raise the aft end of the pop top
>> up on its support arms until the spring loaded detents lock into position.
>> In this position, the front corner of the pop top might interfere with a
>> fixed welded ring on the pop top slider.  The present design, with its eye
>> strap and ring, automatically folds down out of the way.  Even with the
>> present pop top slider design, it’s not the eye strap and ring that’s in
>> the way if you attempt to raise the pop top with the boom vang and
>> Cunningham in place, it’s the two pieces of tackle and all the associated
>> line.  Similarly, it’s not the eye strap and ring that tend to chip up the
>> front corner of the pop top, it’s the lower blocks and snap shackles on the
>> Cunningham and boom vang that do the damage when they start flopping
>> around.  A welded fixed ring wouldn’t change that.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, if the ring is welded onto the pop top slider; then, that will
>> be a critical weld.  There will be a lot of force on it.  I hope you are,
>> or have access to, a certified welder.
>>>> 
>>>> Even after all these years, it’s fun to critically exam Stan’s ideas
>> and designs that were so multifunctional.  He was way ahead of us all in
>> anticipating and solving problems.  My boat is in its 44th season and it’s
>> been sailed hard.  The pop top slider hasn’t given a bit of trouble.
>>>> 
>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>>> 
>>>> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 10:32 PM
>>>> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
>>>> 
>>>> Roger:
>>>> I am thinking that it might be worth getting the ring welded to the
>> plate at about a 30 degree an angle rather than having it flop around in
>> the strap eye. Do you see a reason why that might not work?
>>>> 
>>>> Graham Stewart
>>>> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>> Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 5:24 PM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
>>>> 
>>>> Graham,
>>>> 
>>>> The slider is held in its various positions by a hair pin clip that
>> inserts thru holes drilled thru the mast track.  I always keep the hair pin
>> clip in place to hold the slider down no matter whether I have tension on
>> the boom vang &/or Cunningham or not.  S/V Dynamic Equilibrium came rigged
>> with the boom vang and Cunningham downhaul when I purchased her.  I don’t
>> know if a previous owner drilled and tapped the pop top slider for the eye
>> strap.  Or, maybe back in 1976, Stan might have offered a “performance
>> mainsail package” that included a boom vang and Cunningham.  There is also
>> an eye strap drilled and tapped into the underside of the boom for the top
>> anchor point on the boom vang.  It all looks pretty professional if they
>> are homemade and they both serve their mainsail shaping functions
>> perfectly.  Both the boom vang and Cunningham must be removed to raise the
>> pop top.  With snap shackles, installing and removing them is not a big
>> deal.  A word of caution, all this hardware on the leading edge of the pop
>> top can chip the fiberglass if they get to banging around.  I solved this
>> problem by epoxying 10 gage SS sheet metal to the sides and the top of the
>> pop top near the pointy end where it attaches to the pop top slider.
>>>> 
>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 4:13 PM, Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Roger:
>>>>> My 76 has the same bracket except that it does not have the ring or eye
>>>>> strap. I wonder if that was added by a previous owner. Do you have a
>> track
>>>>> stop to keep the pop top down when the boom vang or Cunningham is in
>> use? If
>>>>> it works well I might copy that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Graham Stewart
>>>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
>>>>> Kingston Ontario
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>>>>> ROGER PIHLAJA
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 1:32 PM
>>>>> To: John Carlson; The Rhodes 22 Email List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Connection
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've attached a picture of the pop top slider connection on my older
>> (1976)
>>>>> standard (i.e. non IMF) mainsail Rhodes 22.  As you can see, it's a
>> simple
>>>>> weldment.  The bent sheet metal slides up and down in the mast slot.
>> The
>>>>> bolt attaches to a pair of brackets on the leading edge of the pop
>> top.  The
>>>>> ring is the lower anchor point for the boom vang and Cunningham
>> downhaul
>>>>> tackle.
>>>>> 
>>>>> [cid:image003.jpg at 01D686AD.A5678F20]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows
>>>>> 10
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: John Carlson via Rhodes22-list<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>> 
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 10:36 AM
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Pop top connection
>>>>> 
>>>>> The front of mine is quite rough as well. I have a picture, but it
>> looks a
>>>>> lot like yours (and I use a Mac).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> John.
>>>>> 2004/12 Rhodes 22
>>>>> Waco, TX
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Mark Whipple <mark at whipplefamily.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> New question: I'm looking at the piece that connects my pop-top to the
>>>>>> mast, and it looks unfinished on the forward end, like it may have
>> been
>>>>>> broken at some point. I realize there are many small differences
>> between
>>>>>> our boats but do yours look like this? (Sorry for the blue tape in
>> the way
>>>>>> - I removed it but then forgot to take another picture.)
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Boston, MA
>>>>>> 2000 R22 *Luna Mia*
>>>>>> 1987 Nimble 30 *For Sale*
>>>>>> 1982 Com-Pac 16 *For Sale*
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>> 
>> 
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