[Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

[ROGER PIHLAJA]

Cary,

Well, you’re still helming and trimming sails, tacking & gibing, you still have to navigate, and docking is way more challenging.  But, you’re going twice as fast, not getting wet, and having to brace yourself when the boat heels over.  If it meant the difference between your spouse insisting on a powerboat or this kind of sailboat, what would you choose?  By the way, note that I still have S/V Dynamic Equilibrium.  Do we have to be uncomfortable &/or a little scared on our boats in order to enjoy them?  My sons would answer “YES!!!”; but, they don’t think the fun starts until the small craft warnings go up!

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 29, 2022, at 9:17 AM, Cary Tolbert <retiredtoby at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> That sounds nice Roger but where is the fun. It is like FLAG football. Is
> it really football?
> Cary
> S/V Whisper
> Claytor Lake, VA
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:02 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> This thread has gotten a bit off topic from the original topic of
>> improving upwind performance.  To those whose spouses don’t like heeling,
>> get them out on a catamaran and see what they think.  & I don’t mean a
>> small beachable cat either.  Beach cats are too easy to capsize.  I mean
>> get them out sailing on a big cruising catamaran.  Every year, I take my
>> Boy Scout troop out for a day sail on my friend’s 42 ft LOA cat, S/V Now
>> What? .   Effortless 7-10 knot cruising speeds under sail with ~4 deg of
>> heel, lots of deck space to stretch out on, and no motor sounds.  You do
>> have to contend with the “Whooshing”  sound from the twin rooster tails
>> coming off the stern.   It’s an expensive solution; but, it will forever
>> change the way you look at monohull sailboats.
>> Roger Pihlaja
>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Apr 28, 2022, at 5:48 PM, Bob Cohen <bobfcohen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dennis -
>>> I am just now getting around to reading this very interesting
>> conversation.
>>> My wife (who is from Detroit) and I live in West Virginia but we have a
>> summer house in Arcadia, MI.  A few years ago we bought our first sailboat
>> - a 2007 Rhodes 22 - which we keep in Onekama on Portage Lake, with water
>> access to Lake Michigan.  We are novices and would like to sail with others
>> who have Rhodes experience.
>>> If you should want to come Up North this summer, we would welcome you
>> and your wife to sail with us.  I can be reached at bobfcohen at gmail.com.
>>> Bob Cohen
>>> s/v Silver Bay
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
>> Dennis McNeely
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:13 PM
>>> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
>>> Thanks for the invitation Stephen!
>>> We still have Magic Moments, our '86 Rhodes 22, but it has been spending
>> most of its time hanging in our boat lift. I started some galley retrofits
>> in an effort to interest Sandi in sailing, but it was not to be, so now I
>> work on the boat from time to time, and when the wind is right for a broad
>> reach over to Canada and back I'll drop her in the water and head out. I
>> still love the magic moment when I silence the motor and the wind begins to
>> drive the boat. <sigh>
>>> But... the trawler presents other opportunities for Sandi and I, and
>> will better deal with some of Mother Nature's silliness when she blows up 4
>> - 6 foot waves on the lake with little notice.
>>> And so I lurk here on DaList - sailing vicariously with all of you!
>>> Dennis
>>> S/V Magic Moments
>>> M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel
>>> ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
>> Stephen Staum
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:13 PM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
>>> Thanks Dennis.  My wife's first comment when I took her sailing in 2002
>> on a Pearson 26 (which has a full heavy keel) was:  This is very nice but
>> does it have to tilt like this?
>>> I knew I was in trouble.  The next year we got our first Rhodes 22, an
>> '87 with IMF.  Needless to say, it is far more tender than the Pearson 26
>> (which was a club boat) so I learned to reef early and often.  We are now
>> on our 3rd Rhodes.  Last year we bought the s/v Pinafore, a '90 that was
>> refurbed by Stan in 2016 and sold our beloved Carol Lee 2.  The CL2 was an
>>> '83 that I converted to an IMF main using the mast salvaged from the
>> Carol Lee which swamped and turtled in a hurricane in 2011 and was totaled
>> by Boat US Insurance.  The Pinafore has the fully enclosed head with flush
>> toilet instead of the porta potti, electric motor lift to save my old back
>> and a 2016 (very quiet) 4 stroke Evinrude outboard to make motoring to and
>> from the mooring far more pleasant than our old (but very reliable)
>> screaming 2 stroke.
>>> Also worth mentioning,  my wife Carol does not swim well and is
>> terrified of the water.  I bought her an offshore automatic inflatable life
>> vest when we first started and she has sailed with me almost every weekend
>> since.
>>> The little boat is our on-the-water summer home.  We often sail with the
>> Genoa (now a 130) only and I even reef that if the wind gusts get over 10
>> knots.  We survived a sudden squall 2 years ago with 70 mph winds and 5
>> foot seas!  I was tethered at the helm with Carol in the cabin with the pop
>> top down.  It was terrifying but the seaworthiness of the Rhodes 22 (with
>> some credit to the idiot at the helm) carried the day.  Carol even came
>> back and sailed with me the following weekend!
>>> So Dennis, if you want to give the Rhodes another try, come on out to
>> Massachusetts this season and sail with us on the Pinafore.  I don't know
>> if I'll get it together but I am scheduled to launch the first week in May
>> and the launch service continues 7 days a week from 8 am to 9 pm until
>> October 31.  We sail out of the Hingham Shipyard Marina which leads to
>> nicely protected waters and the lovely Boston Harbor Islands.  Best weather
>> is from July through September.  Let me know if and when you want to come.
>>> *Thanks and Stay Well,*
>>> *Stephen Staum*
>>> *s/v Pinafore*
>>> *Needham, MA*
>>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM Dennis McNeely <
>> mcneelyd at site-solutions.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Salute Stephen -
>>>> I'm on an island in the Detroit River - in Gibraltar, Michigan. I
>>>> really enjoyed my Rhodes 22, but then I met a lady who didn't deal
>>>> well with the boat when heeling - so now we have a trawler and I sail
>>>> a pair of Detroit Diesels. A bit of a bummer, but I'm still out on the
>>>> water, and she's happy with it!
>>>> Dennis McNeely
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
>>>> Stephen Staum
>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:15 AM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
>> performance?
>>>> Dennis that was a great comment.  In addition to performance, I
>>>> noticed years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the
>>>> boat sat stern low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill
>>>> causing the bow low condition).  It never filled on the mooring as the
>>>> boat normally sits with the bow lower.
>>>> Where are you from Dennis?
>>>> *Thanks and Stay Well,*
>>>> *Stephen Staum*
>>>> *s/v Pinafore*
>>>> *Needham, MA*
>>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely <
>>>> mcneelyd at site-solutions.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Greetings all -
>>>>> One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the
>>>>> bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter
>>>>> the force of the sails.
>>>>> Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the
>>>>> sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways.
>>>>> That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but
>>>>> it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is
>>>>> too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying
>>>>> to balance your rig is a non-starter.
>>>>> Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is
>>>>> riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you
>>>>> won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force
>>>>> of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the
>>>>> spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind).
>>>>> The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become.
>>>>> Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf
>>>>> Of ROGER PIHLAJA
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
>> performance?
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> Here’s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake.
>>>>> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail,
>>>>> establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as
>> possible.
>>>>> Take note of how much weather helm you have.  Assuming you have the
>>>>> IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches.
>>>>> Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good
>>>>> as possible.  You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral
>>>>> or even lee helm.  Keep reducing mainsail area until you have
>>>>> eliminated
>>>> all the weather helm.
>>>>> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the
>> rig.
>>>>> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air.
>>>>> As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no
>>>>> matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail.  I won’t
>>>>> go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape
>>>>> of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm.  You
>>>>> counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail
>>>>> area.  This moves the rig’s center of effort forward and reduces
>> weather helm.
>>>>> You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep
>>>>> the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance
>>>>> the
>>>> helm.
>>>>> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how
>>>>> the rig is tuned.  The easiest point of reference is to have the rig
>>>>> tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman.  So, even
>>>>> though the helmsman isn’t getting any feedback thru the tiller,
>>>>> he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go
>>>>> straight.  As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced,
>>>>> the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build.  The
>>>>> helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller.  If the
>>>>> weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always
>>>>> be reduced to take
>>>> the pressure off the tiller.
>>>>> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing
>>>>> amount of drag.  This slows the boat down and reduces pointing
>>>>> ability.  Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller
>>>>> is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel,
>>>>> centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the
>>>>> required
>>>> lift for the boat to be able to point.
>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
>>>>> Sent from Mail<
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=05%7C01%7C%7C695549e35d9a48b1025808da29e2a591%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637868350670515893%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jx26EX7dJ9fhBNtqJHEogVL4PqWZpsUvPTbBYbWXEGE%3D&reserved=0>
>> for
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
>> performance?
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> A couple of things to check:
>>>>> 1.   Is your centerboard all the way down?
>>>>> 2.  Is your rudder blade all the way down?
>>>>> 3.  In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler
>>>>> to center the boom.  Make certain the boom is not rising up and
>>>>> there isn’t too much curl on the leech.  Make certain the mainsail
>>>>> foot out haul is tight.  Without battens, there is only so much you
>>>>> can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best
>>>>> that is
>>>> possible.
>>>>> 4.  Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay.
>>>>> It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the
>> forestay sag.
>>>>> Don’t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster.  A mast head
>>>>> rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form
>>>>> an efficient slot with the mainsail.
>>>>> 5.  Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the
>>>>> tension in the standing rigging.
>>>>> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big
>>>>> sailing dingy, as upright as possible.  There should be zero to very
>>>>> slight weather helm.  If you have too much weather helm; then reduce
>>>>> the
>>>> mast rake angle.
>>>>> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck.
>>>>> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot
>>>>> of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather.
>>>>> Hopefully, these suggestions help.
>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm
>>>>>> starting to focus on getting the best performance out of her.
>>>>>> While I mostly sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and
>>>>>> want to be more competitive.  In particular, I have found that she
>>>>>> does not go to
>>>>> windward very well for me.
>>>>>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail.  Until very recently, I
>>>>>> have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and
>>>>>> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa.
>>>>>> Consequently, I can only tack through about 100-120o.
>>>>>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds
>>>>>> and the inner shrouds.  That definitely improved my pointing
>>>>>> ability significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail
>>>>>> shape on some off wind points of sail.  However, this
>>>>>> configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength
>>>>>> and whether or not I am partially reefed.  I think this will
>>>>>> retain the ability to use a whisker
>>>>> pole on downwind legs.
>>>>>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat
>>>>>> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second
>>>>>> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch
>>>>>> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo).  Also,
>>>>>> those options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle
>>>>>> to the clew with the
>>>>> jib cars.
>>>>>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you
>>>>>> have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Mike McKay
>>>>>> s/v Liber (2006/2018)
>>>>>> Allatoona Lake
>>>>>> Acworth, GA