[Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor

Fri Feb 11 06:52:47 EST 2022

Thomas,

Do you remember the lithium battery fires on Samsung Galaxy smartphones from a few years ago?  They were busting into flames in people’s pockets and carry on luggage.  Several airlines banned them.  The issue is, we all want more and more battery life from our devices and range from our electric vehicles.  To increase the so called energy density, the lithium battery manufacturers are cramming more and more anodes and cathodes closer and closer together in their batteries.  These close tolerances makes them more vulnerable to an internal short circuit and a fire. Things like vibration, shock, heat, age, repeated charge/discharge cycles, overcharging, and collision damage can also trigger an internal short.  Once an internal short starts, it can trigger a cascading failure wherein the stored energy gets turned into heat, which causes more internal shorting, more heat, and so on.  This kind of fire is very difficult to extinguish because the stored energy just keeps reigniting it and there is no way to separate the anodes and cathodes inside the sealed battery.  Fortunately, lithium battery safety is getting better; but, I just wanted to warn people that want to switch over to electric propulsion about this issue.  As lithium batteries proliferate thru our devices and vehicles and the battery fleet ages, you can expect to see more and more of these fires.  It’s one thing to burn up your laptop or your car, and quite another to burn your boat.  At the very least, it could be the start of “a bad day on the water!”

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
Auxiliary engine powered by geochemically recycled biomass

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2022, at 3:27 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> 
> If your lithium battery is on fire, it might be pretty tough to get it loose from the battery mount and then pick it up to throw it overboard!  If you could somehow get it overboard; that, would be good for the boat, but bad for the environment.  Because of the huge amount of stored energy and reactivity of lithium/water, I don’t think any commercially available fire extinguisher would work on that type of fire.  That’s my whole point.  Although it’s a low probability event, if your lithium battery starts burning, it might be a lose the boat situation.  There’s no good way to put something like that out and it’s bolted down so you can’t get rid of it.
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 10, 2022, at 2:28 PM, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Roger,
>> 
>> So ... If your Li battery is on fire, tossing it overboard is not recommended, even if it saves the boat from burning to the waterline. Is there a better recommendation than abandoning ship and watching the boat and the battery sink? Is there a good device to extinguish a Li battery fire? All I carry is a 10lb ABC extinguisher.
>> 
>> Mike
>> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
>> Nissequogue River, NY
>> I’d rather be sailing :~)
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA
>> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 2:11 PM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> To all of you considering switching over to electric propulsion, besides all the usual issues regarding electrical connections, corrosion, and water; there are some additional precautions associated with batteries.  Batteries must be securely mounted so they can’t tip over, preferably low and near the center of the boat.  If lead/acid batteries get dunked in sea water, the sulfuric acid electrolyte and lead sulfide on the plates will react with the sodium chloride in sea water to produce chlorine gas, which is quite toxic. If lead acid batteries are overcharged, they can release hydrogen sulfide gas, which is very smelly and also toxic.  More modern nickel/lithium batteries use lithium.  Lithium is a reactive alkali metal and reacts with water to produce hydrogen gas, which is quite flammable.  Note, if your lithium battery pack is on fire, do NOT try to extinguish the fire with water!  You will only make things worse.  Modern marine batteries are usually sealed against water intrusion; but, especially with big battery packs, you need to be aware of what hazards you are carrying.  It’s another big energy source that needs to be properly handled and respected.
>> 
>> Roger Pihlaja
>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Feb 10, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Matt Wilson <mwhornblower at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the links!
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have any experience with CNCEST electric outboards?  
>>> Thanks for the help, Matt
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Michael D. Weisner 
>>>> <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Several discussions have been logged on the list concerning electric 
>>>> propulsion.
>>>> 
>>>> A discussion about the Torqueedo sizes and capabilities starts at:
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhode
>>>> s22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-June%2F084960.html&dat
>>>> a=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43
>>>> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey
>>>> JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C30
>>>> 00&sdata=wDOYGqdUtKG9Dkkne5U8vZ7rC5tsVggNlLsYTlFOQII%3D&reser
>>>> ved=0 You may follow the thread by clicking on the "Next message" 
>>>> links.
>>>> 
>>>> The above thread was prompted by a discussion the previous month 
>>>> entitled "Torqueedo article" at:
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.r%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf5140ae7545b42940ee408d9ecdc1ff4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637801252461195511%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=v4Qy%2BCpFZgxJMx8eAdroYbPD1%2FCJKAre5oEhZna7c3k%3D&reserved=0
>>>> hodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-May%2F084857.html&
>>>> data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640af
>>>> b435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d
>>>> 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7
>>>> C3000&sdata=riQXhxlo71EyrZS6yOWDTz4BZr91YVxZshpIQluaRlg%3D&re
>>>> served=0 The original link to the article is bad, but, the German 
>>>> version is still available at:
>>>> 
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwass
>>>> erwanderer.de%2F2020%2F05%2F23%2Fwie-weit-kommt-man-mit-dem-torqeedo-
>>>> travel-wirklich%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca1
>>>> 2725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%
>>>> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
>>>> k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n295uejcLnI8feB2%2BzBUtg7o3G0v
>>>> rNOZ0IykRzpmv6Q%3D&reserved=0 You can translate the text in 5000 
>>>> character chunks using google translate to get the gist.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>> I’d rather be sailing :~)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of 
>>>> Matt Wilson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 11:46 AM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks guys,
>>>> 
>>>> Does anyone on this list has a minimum electric outboard thrust 
>>>> recommendation or specific electric outboard recommendation? Budget 
>>>> matters but since I will be making a claim on a nice motor that is 
>>>> now missing, I have some money to play with.
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you!
>>>> Matt
>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:17 AM Steve Bauman <sbauman369 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> About 2.5 years ago, I too used a trolling motor for a couple of 
>>>>> weeks while my gas outboard engine was being serviced.  It was maybe 
>>>>> a 50 pound thrust one, the largest I could buy at Walmart at that 
>>>>> time.  I found it to be totally inadequate, even just to get me out 
>>>>> of our marina
>>>> in mild wind.
>>>>> One time, I literally sailed, making shallow tacking turns, in 
>>>>> addition to having the motor running full blast, to get out.  That 
>>>>> being said, I love the idea of changing over to a proper electric 
>>>>> outboard, something I may do for this coming season.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Steve
>>>>> Misty Anne
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:30 AM Todd Robinson <ctrobins at outlook.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I sail on Kerr Lake in NC. When my outboard failed and was going to 
>>>>>> be in the shop for several months I purchased a Newport L trolling 
>>>>>> motor that provided 62lbs of thrust. I loved how easy and quiet it 
>>>>>> was but it could not handle much wind. Just getting out of the 
>>>>>> marina was challenging when the wind was above 7 knots. It took a 
>>>>>> while for it to get traction to overcome the wind and I started 
>>>>>> worrying that I was not going to make it back to my slip much less 
>>>>>> the lake. However, after going backwards a few slips it dug in and 
>>>>>> I was able to get out and have a great day on the
>>>>> lake.
>>>>>> After that, I just went out when it wasn't so windy which probably 
>>>>>> suits
>>>>> my
>>>>>> skill level better. When it came time to get the boat out of the 
>>>>>> water,
>>>>> it
>>>>>> did not have any trouble getting the boat onto the trailer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Outboard is repaired and will be the primary this year but I'll 
>>>>>> keep the Newport onboard as a backup. Paddling back when the wind 
>>>>>> dies is
>>>> not fun.
>>>>>> If I had the funds, I would love to switch to an electric outboard.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Disclaimer, I am new to boating so I'm sure a lot of my challenges 
>>>>>> are
>>>>> due
>>>>>> to lack of knowledge/experience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf 
>>>>>> Of Matt Wilson
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 8:59 AM
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I recently had my gas powered motor stolen off my boat in storage 
>>>>>> and am looking for a replacement. I sail on a fairly large lake in 
>>>>>> MN.  I am wondering if any of you have used a normal electric motor 
>>>>>> (trolling
>>>>> motor)
>>>>>> in sheltered water and if so, what pounds of thrust?  I am mainly 
>>>>>> using
>>>>> it
>>>>>> for maneuvering to and from my mooring and dock.  I suppose I would 
>>>>>> occasionally need to get across the lake if the wind died.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>>> Matt Wilson
>>>>>> Hornblower II
>>>>>> White Bear Lake, MN
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 