[Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor

Fri Feb 11 17:39:37 EST 2022

Some additional context about lithium batteries...

I'm not an expert on this but it's my understanding that the lithium
batteries posing the most risk are lithium ion polymer batteries, which are
infamous for the incidents that Roger mentioned.  The lithium batteries
that have become more popular for house battery banks on boats (and camper
vans and other off grid setups) in recent years are lithium iron phosphate
(LiFePO4).  Compared to the lithium ion polymer batteries, LiFePO4 are less
energy dense and safer.  LiFePO4 batteries have a battery management system
onboard  which can shutdown the battery if it detects a problem - of course
this does rely on more sophisticated systems rather than the simplicity of
more traditional batteries.  There's quite a bit of information available
on LiFePO4 online (of course some of that is hype).

People tend to stick with more traditional cranking batteries for their
starter on engines since they are built for that purpose.  However, the
electric start on my outboard has a small enough draw that my new battery
should handle that fine.

I did a fair amount of research in this area since part of my winter
projects were to swap out my two Group 27 flooded lead acid batteries for a
single 100 amp hour LiFePO4 battery made by Renogy.  Along with this, I got
a new charger that has a charging profile for lithium.  I also got the
bluetooth transmitter so I can see the state of the battery easily.  I also
put in a 30 watt solar panel on the stern, added renogy charge controllers,
added a battery monitor with a shunt and updated a bunch of wiring.
Sometime in a few weeks (maybe March), I'll put together a recap of the
off-season projects including the electrical updates on the boat.

Part of the motivation was to make it easier to take my battery out each
winter.  Each of the group 27 batteries weighed over 55 lbs.  My new
battery weighs around 25 lbs.  It was a lot more expensive, but it has more
usable power than both of the old batteries together, doesn't require
maintenance, and due to the long lifecycle of the LiFePO4 battery, I don't
anticipate having to buy a new battery for my R22 again.

There are pros and cons to all the battery types and I'm not trying to
convince anyone of what they should do.  My updated setup is overkill and
beyond my needs, but this project was an excuse to learn more about DC
electrical on boats and that's part of the fun of having a boat.  I'll
provide some feedback to the list after I've used the new setup more next
season.

Jesse Shumaker
S/V Zephyr

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 5:52 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Thomas,
>
> Do you remember the lithium battery fires on Samsung Galaxy smartphones
> from a few years ago?  They were busting into flames in people’s pockets
> and carry on luggage.  Several airlines banned them.  The issue is, we all
> want more and more battery life from our devices and range from our
> electric vehicles.  To increase the so called energy density, the lithium
> battery manufacturers are cramming more and more anodes and cathodes closer
> and closer together in their batteries.  These close tolerances makes them
> more vulnerable to an internal short circuit and a fire. Things like
> vibration, shock, heat, age, repeated charge/discharge cycles,
> overcharging, and collision damage can also trigger an internal short.
> Once an internal short starts, it can trigger a cascading failure wherein
> the stored energy gets turned into heat, which causes more internal
> shorting, more heat, and so on.  This kind of fire is very difficult to
> extinguish because the stored energy just keeps reigniting it and there is
> no way to separate the anodes and cathodes inside the sealed battery.
> Fortunately, lithium battery safety is getting better; but, I just wanted
> to warn people that want to switch over to electric propulsion about this
> issue.  As lithium batteries proliferate thru our devices and vehicles and
> the battery fleet ages, you can expect to see more and more of these
> fires.  It’s one thing to burn up your laptop or your car, and quite
> another to burn your boat.  At the very least, it could be the start of “a
> bad day on the water!”
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> Auxiliary engine powered by geochemically recycled biomass
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 10, 2022, at 3:27 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > If your lithium battery is on fire, it might be pretty tough to get it
> loose from the battery mount and then pick it up to throw it overboard!  If
> you could somehow get it overboard; that, would be good for the boat, but
> bad for the environment.  Because of the huge amount of stored energy and
> reactivity of lithium/water, I don’t think any commercially available fire
> extinguisher would work on that type of fire.  That’s my whole point.
> Although it’s a low probability event, if your lithium battery starts
> burning, it might be a lose the boat situation.  There’s no good way to put
> something like that out and it’s bolted down so you can’t get rid of it.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Feb 10, 2022, at 2:28 PM, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Roger,
> >>
> >> So ... If your Li battery is on fire, tossing it overboard is not
> recommended, even if it saves the boat from burning to the waterline. Is
> there a better recommendation than abandoning ship and watching the boat
> and the battery sink? Is there a good device to extinguish a Li battery
> fire? All I carry is a 10lb ABC extinguisher.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
> >> Nissequogue River, NY
> >> I’d rather be sailing :~)
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
> ROGER PIHLAJA
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 2:11 PM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> To all of you considering switching over to electric propulsion,
> besides all the usual issues regarding electrical connections, corrosion,
> and water; there are some additional precautions associated with
> batteries.  Batteries must be securely mounted so they can’t tip over,
> preferably low and near the center of the boat.  If lead/acid batteries get
> dunked in sea water, the sulfuric acid electrolyte and lead sulfide on the
> plates will react with the sodium chloride in sea water to produce chlorine
> gas, which is quite toxic. If lead acid batteries are overcharged, they can
> release hydrogen sulfide gas, which is very smelly and also toxic.  More
> modern nickel/lithium batteries use lithium.  Lithium is a reactive alkali
> metal and reacts with water to produce hydrogen gas, which is quite
> flammable.  Note, if your lithium battery pack is on fire, do NOT try to
> extinguish the fire with water!  You will only make things worse.  Modern
> marine batteries are usually sealed against water intrusion; but,
> especially with big battery packs, you need to be aware of what hazards you
> are carrying.  It’s another big energy source that needs to be properly
> handled and respected.
> >>
> >> Roger Pihlaja
> >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>> On Feb 10, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Matt Wilson <mwhornblower at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the links!
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have any experience with CNCEST electric outboards?
> >>> Thanks for the help, Matt
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Michael D. Weisner
> >>>> <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Several discussions have been logged on the list concerning electric
> >>>> propulsion.
> >>>>
> >>>> A discussion about the Torqueedo sizes and capabilities starts at:
> >>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhode
> >>>> s22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-June%2F084960.html&dat
> >>>> a=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43
> >>>> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey
> >>>> JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C30
> >>>> 00&sdata=wDOYGqdUtKG9Dkkne5U8vZ7rC5tsVggNlLsYTlFOQII%3D&reser
> >>>> ved=0 You may follow the thread by clicking on the "Next message"
> >>>> links.
> >>>>
> >>>> The above thread was prompted by a discussion the previous month
> >>>> entitled "Torqueedo article" at:
> >>>>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.r%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf5140ae7545b42940ee408d9ecdc1ff4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637801252461195511%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=v4Qy%2BCpFZgxJMx8eAdroYbPD1%2FCJKAre5oEhZna7c3k%3D&reserved=0
> >>>> hodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-May%2F084857.html&
> >>>> data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640af
> >>>> b435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d
> >>>> 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7
> >>>> C3000&sdata=riQXhxlo71EyrZS6yOWDTz4BZr91YVxZshpIQluaRlg%3D&re
> >>>> served=0 The original link to the article is bad, but, the German
> >>>> version is still available at:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwass
> >>>> erwanderer.de%2F2020%2F05%2F23%2Fwie-weit-kommt-man-mit-dem-torqeedo-
> >>>> travel-wirklich%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca1
> >>>> 2725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%
> >>>> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
> >>>> k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n295uejcLnI8feB2%2BzBUtg7o3G0v
> >>>> rNOZ0IykRzpmv6Q%3D&reserved=0 You can translate the text in 5000
> >>>> character chunks using google translate to get the gist.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike
> >>>> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
> >>>> Nissequogue River, NY
> >>>> I’d rather be sailing :~)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf
> Of
> >>>> Matt Wilson
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 11:46 AM
> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks guys,
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone on this list has a minimum electric outboard thrust
> >>>> recommendation or specific electric outboard recommendation? Budget
> >>>> matters but since I will be making a claim on a nice motor that is
> >>>> now missing, I have some money to play with.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you!
> >>>> Matt
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:17 AM Steve Bauman <sbauman369 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> About 2.5 years ago, I too used a trolling motor for a couple of
> >>>>> weeks while my gas outboard engine was being serviced.  It was maybe
> >>>>> a 50 pound thrust one, the largest I could buy at Walmart at that
> >>>>> time.  I found it to be totally inadequate, even just to get me out
> >>>>> of our marina
> >>>> in mild wind.
> >>>>> One time, I literally sailed, making shallow tacking turns, in
> >>>>> addition to having the motor running full blast, to get out.  That
> >>>>> being said, I love the idea of changing over to a proper electric
> >>>>> outboard, something I may do for this coming season.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve
> >>>>> Misty Anne
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:30 AM Todd Robinson <ctrobins at outlook.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I sail on Kerr Lake in NC. When my outboard failed and was going to
> >>>>>> be in the shop for several months I purchased a Newport L trolling
> >>>>>> motor that provided 62lbs of thrust. I loved how easy and quiet it
> >>>>>> was but it could not handle much wind. Just getting out of the
> >>>>>> marina was challenging when the wind was above 7 knots. It took a
> >>>>>> while for it to get traction to overcome the wind and I started
> >>>>>> worrying that I was not going to make it back to my slip much less
> >>>>>> the lake. However, after going backwards a few slips it dug in and
> >>>>>> I was able to get out and have a great day on the
> >>>>> lake.
> >>>>>> After that, I just went out when it wasn't so windy which probably
> >>>>>> suits
> >>>>> my
> >>>>>> skill level better. When it came time to get the boat out of the
> >>>>>> water,
> >>>>> it
> >>>>>> did not have any trouble getting the boat onto the trailer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Outboard is repaired and will be the primary this year but I'll
> >>>>>> keep the Newport onboard as a backup. Paddling back when the wind
> >>>>>> dies is
> >>>> not fun.
> >>>>>> If I had the funds, I would love to switch to an electric outboard.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Disclaimer, I am new to boating so I'm sure a lot of my challenges
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>> due
> >>>>>> to lack of knowledge/experience.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf
> >>>>>> Of Matt Wilson
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 8:59 AM
> >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello everyone,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I recently had my gas powered motor stolen off my boat in storage
> >>>>>> and am looking for a replacement. I sail on a fairly large lake in
> >>>>>> MN.  I am wondering if any of you have used a normal electric motor
> >>>>>> (trolling
> >>>>> motor)
> >>>>>> in sheltered water and if so, what pounds of thrust?  I am mainly
> >>>>>> using
> >>>>> it
> >>>>>> for maneuvering to and from my mooring and dock.  I suppose I would
> >>>>>> occasionally need to get across the lake if the wind died.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Many thanks,
> >>>>>> Matt Wilson
> >>>>>> Hornblower II
> >>>>>> White Bear Lake, MN
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>