[Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor

Fri Feb 11 20:00:34 EST 2022

Looking forward to hearing all about it.
Chris G.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Jesse Shumaker <
jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some additional context about lithium batteries...
>
> I'm not an expert on this but it's my understanding that the lithium
> batteries posing the most risk are lithium ion polymer batteries, which are
> infamous for the incidents that Roger mentioned.  The lithium batteries
> that have become more popular for house battery banks on boats (and camper
> vans and other off grid setups) in recent years are lithium iron phosphate
> (LiFePO4).  Compared to the lithium ion polymer batteries, LiFePO4 are less
> energy dense and safer.  LiFePO4 batteries have a battery management system
> onboard  which can shutdown the battery if it detects a problem - of course
> this does rely on more sophisticated systems rather than the simplicity of
> more traditional batteries.  There's quite a bit of information available
> on LiFePO4 online (of course some of that is hype).
>
> People tend to stick with more traditional cranking batteries for their
> starter on engines since they are built for that purpose.  However, the
> electric start on my outboard has a small enough draw that my new battery
> should handle that fine.
>
> I did a fair amount of research in this area since part of my winter
> projects were to swap out my two Group 27 flooded lead acid batteries for a
> single 100 amp hour LiFePO4 battery made by Renogy.  Along with this, I got
> a new charger that has a charging profile for lithium.  I also got the
> bluetooth transmitter so I can see the state of the battery easily.  I also
> put in a 30 watt solar panel on the stern, added renogy charge controllers,
> added a battery monitor with a shunt and updated a bunch of wiring.
> Sometime in a few weeks (maybe March), I'll put together a recap of the
> off-season projects including the electrical updates on the boat.
>
> Part of the motivation was to make it easier to take my battery out each
> winter.  Each of the group 27 batteries weighed over 55 lbs.  My new
> battery weighs around 25 lbs.  It was a lot more expensive, but it has more
> usable power than both of the old batteries together, doesn't require
> maintenance, and due to the long lifecycle of the LiFePO4 battery, I don't
> anticipate having to buy a new battery for my R22 again.
>
> There are pros and cons to all the battery types and I'm not trying to
> convince anyone of what they should do.  My updated setup is overkill and
> beyond my needs, but this project was an excuse to learn more about DC
> electrical on boats and that's part of the fun of having a boat.  I'll
> provide some feedback to the list after I've used the new setup more next
> season.
>
> Jesse Shumaker
> S/V Zephyr
>
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 5:52 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thomas,
> >
> > Do you remember the lithium battery fires on Samsung Galaxy smartphones
> > from a few years ago?  They were busting into flames in people’s pockets
> > and carry on luggage.  Several airlines banned them.  The issue is, we
> all
> > want more and more battery life from our devices and range from our
> > electric vehicles.  To increase the so called energy density, the lithium
> > battery manufacturers are cramming more and more anodes and cathodes
> closer
> > and closer together in their batteries.  These close tolerances makes
> them
> > more vulnerable to an internal short circuit and a fire. Things like
> > vibration, shock, heat, age, repeated charge/discharge cycles,
> > overcharging, and collision damage can also trigger an internal short.
> > Once an internal short starts, it can trigger a cascading failure wherein
> > the stored energy gets turned into heat, which causes more internal
> > shorting, more heat, and so on.  This kind of fire is very difficult to
> > extinguish because the stored energy just keeps reigniting it and there
> is
> > no way to separate the anodes and cathodes inside the sealed battery.
> > Fortunately, lithium battery safety is getting better; but, I just wanted
> > to warn people that want to switch over to electric propulsion about this
> > issue.  As lithium batteries proliferate thru our devices and vehicles
> and
> > the battery fleet ages, you can expect to see more and more of these
> > fires.  It’s one thing to burn up your laptop or your car, and quite
> > another to burn your boat.  At the very least, it could be the start of
> “a
> > bad day on the water!”
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > Auxiliary engine powered by geochemically recycled biomass
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Feb 10, 2022, at 3:27 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > If your lithium battery is on fire, it might be pretty tough to get it
> > loose from the battery mount and then pick it up to throw it overboard!
> If
> > you could somehow get it overboard; that, would be good for the boat, but
> > bad for the environment.  Because of the huge amount of stored energy and
> > reactivity of lithium/water, I don’t think any commercially available
> fire
> > extinguisher would work on that type of fire.  That’s my whole point.
> > Although it’s a low probability event, if your lithium battery starts
> > burning, it might be a lose the boat situation.  There’s no good way to
> put
> > something like that out and it’s bolted down so you can’t get rid of it.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >> On Feb 10, 2022, at 2:28 PM, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Roger,
> > >>
> > >> So ... If your Li battery is on fire, tossing it overboard is not
> > recommended, even if it saves the boat from burning to the waterline. Is
> > there a better recommendation than abandoning ship and watching the boat
> > and the battery sink? Is there a good device to extinguish a Li battery
> > fire? All I carry is a 10lb ABC extinguisher.
> > >>
> > >> Mike
> > >> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
> > >> Nissequogue River, NY
> > >> I’d rather be sailing :~)
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
> > ROGER PIHLAJA
> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 2:11 PM
> > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
> > >>
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> To all of you considering switching over to electric propulsion,
> > besides all the usual issues regarding electrical connections, corrosion,
> > and water; there are some additional precautions associated with
> > batteries.  Batteries must be securely mounted so they can’t tip over,
> > preferably low and near the center of the boat.  If lead/acid batteries
> get
> > dunked in sea water, the sulfuric acid electrolyte and lead sulfide on
> the
> > plates will react with the sodium chloride in sea water to produce
> chlorine
> > gas, which is quite toxic. If lead acid batteries are overcharged, they
> can
> > release hydrogen sulfide gas, which is very smelly and also toxic.  More
> > modern nickel/lithium batteries use lithium.  Lithium is a reactive
> alkali
> > metal and reacts with water to produce hydrogen gas, which is quite
> > flammable.  Note, if your lithium battery pack is on fire, do NOT try to
> > extinguish the fire with water!  You will only make things worse.  Modern
> > marine batteries are usually sealed against water intrusion; but,
> > especially with big battery packs, you need to be aware of what hazards
> you
> > are carrying.  It’s another big energy source that needs to be properly
> > handled and respected.
> > >>
> > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>> On Feb 10, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Matt Wilson <mwhornblower at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the links!
> > >>>
> > >>> Does anyone have any experience with CNCEST electric outboards?
> > >>> Thanks for the help, Matt
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Michael D. Weisner
> > >>>> <mweisner at ebsmed.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Several discussions have been logged on the list concerning electric
> > >>>> propulsion.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A discussion about the Torqueedo sizes and capabilities starts at:
> > >>>>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhode
> > >>>> s22.org
> %2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-June%2F084960.html&dat
> > >>>>
> a=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43
> > >>>>
> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey
> > >>>>
> JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C30
> > >>>>
> 00&sdata=wDOYGqdUtKG9Dkkne5U8vZ7rC5tsVggNlLsYTlFOQII%3D&reser
> > >>>> ved=0 You may follow the thread by clicking on the "Next message"
> > >>>> links.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The above thread was prompted by a discussion the previous month
> > >>>> entitled "Torqueedo article" at:
> > >>>>
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.r%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf5140ae7545b42940ee408d9ecdc1ff4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637801252461195511%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=v4Qy%2BCpFZgxJMx8eAdroYbPD1%2FCJKAre5oEhZna7c3k%3D&reserved=0
> > >>>> hodes22.org
> %2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-May%2F084857.html&
> > >>>>
> data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640af
> > >>>>
> b435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d
> > >>>>
> 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7
> > >>>>
> C3000&sdata=riQXhxlo71EyrZS6yOWDTz4BZr91YVxZshpIQluaRlg%3D&re
> > >>>> served=0 The original link to the article is bad, but, the German
> > >>>> version is still available at:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwass
> > >>>> erwanderer.de
> %2F2020%2F05%2F23%2Fwie-weit-kommt-man-mit-dem-torqeedo-
> > >>>>
> travel-wirklich%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca1
> > >>>>
> 2725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%
> > >>>>
> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
> > >>>>
> k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n295uejcLnI8feB2%2BzBUtg7o3G0v
> > >>>> rNOZ0IykRzpmv6Q%3D&reserved=0 You can translate the text in 5000
> > >>>> character chunks using google translate to get the gist.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Mike
> > >>>> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
> > >>>> Nissequogue River, NY
> > >>>> I’d rather be sailing :~)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf
> > Of
> > >>>> Matt Wilson
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 11:46 AM
> > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks guys,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Does anyone on this list has a minimum electric outboard thrust
> > >>>> recommendation or specific electric outboard recommendation? Budget
> > >>>> matters but since I will be making a claim on a nice motor that is
> > >>>> now missing, I have some money to play with.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thank you!
> > >>>> Matt
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:17 AM Steve Bauman <sbauman369 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> About 2.5 years ago, I too used a trolling motor for a couple of
> > >>>>> weeks while my gas outboard engine was being serviced.  It was
> maybe
> > >>>>> a 50 pound thrust one, the largest I could buy at Walmart at that
> > >>>>> time.  I found it to be totally inadequate, even just to get me out
> > >>>>> of our marina
> > >>>> in mild wind.
> > >>>>> One time, I literally sailed, making shallow tacking turns, in
> > >>>>> addition to having the motor running full blast, to get out.  That
> > >>>>> being said, I love the idea of changing over to a proper electric
> > >>>>> outboard, something I may do for this coming season.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Steve
> > >>>>> Misty Anne
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:30 AM Todd Robinson <
> ctrobins at outlook.com>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> I sail on Kerr Lake in NC. When my outboard failed and was going
> to
> > >>>>>> be in the shop for several months I purchased a Newport L trolling
> > >>>>>> motor that provided 62lbs of thrust. I loved how easy and quiet it
> > >>>>>> was but it could not handle much wind. Just getting out of the
> > >>>>>> marina was challenging when the wind was above 7 knots. It took a
> > >>>>>> while for it to get traction to overcome the wind and I started
> > >>>>>> worrying that I was not going to make it back to my slip much less
> > >>>>>> the lake. However, after going backwards a few slips it dug in and
> > >>>>>> I was able to get out and have a great day on the
> > >>>>> lake.
> > >>>>>> After that, I just went out when it wasn't so windy which probably
> > >>>>>> suits
> > >>>>> my
> > >>>>>> skill level better. When it came time to get the boat out of the
> > >>>>>> water,
> > >>>>> it
> > >>>>>> did not have any trouble getting the boat onto the trailer.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Outboard is repaired and will be the primary this year but I'll
> > >>>>>> keep the Newport onboard as a backup. Paddling back when the wind
> > >>>>>> dies is
> > >>>> not fun.
> > >>>>>> If I had the funds, I would love to switch to an electric
> outboard.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Disclaimer, I am new to boating so I'm sure a lot of my challenges
> > >>>>>> are
> > >>>>> due
> > >>>>>> to lack of knowledge/experience.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On
> Behalf
> > >>>>>> Of Matt Wilson
> > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 8:59 AM
> > >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hello everyone,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I recently had my gas powered motor stolen off my boat in storage
> > >>>>>> and am looking for a replacement. I sail on a fairly large lake in
> > >>>>>> MN.  I am wondering if any of you have used a normal electric
> motor
> > >>>>>> (trolling
> > >>>>> motor)
> > >>>>>> in sheltered water and if so, what pounds of thrust?  I am mainly
> > >>>>>> using
> > >>>>> it
> > >>>>>> for maneuvering to and from my mooring and dock.  I suppose I
> would
> > >>>>>> occasionally need to get across the lake if the wind died.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Many thanks,
> > >>>>>> Matt Wilson
> > >>>>>> Hornblower II
> > >>>>>> White Bear Lake, MN
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> >
>