[Rhodes22-list] Mast Base Repairs: was Delaminating tiller handle

[ROGER PIHLAJA]

Hi Peter,

Others have given good advice re how to repair the mast tabernacle base.  If the wood under the mast tabernacle base is rotten; then, that must be repaired first.  The acetone diluted/slow cure epoxy I disclosed previously can be a part of that repair; but, there is more to such a repair.  I suggest you check the list archives for more details.  If all that happened is the wood screws pulled out; but, the wood is still sound; then, I would drill out the blown out holes until you get to sound wood.  Then, wet out the sides and bottom of the holes with unthickened epoxy.  After the epoxy kicks; but, before it fully cures, fill in the holes with thickened epoxy.  I like to use West System 406 colloidal silica thickening agent.  Mix the resin and hardener together first and get them well mixed.  Then add the thickening agent until you get a paste like consistency that can be forced into the holes with a putty knife.  The uncured, unthickened epoxy on the sides and bottom of the holes will bond with the thickened epoxy to give a solidly attached plug.

Mast stepping/unstepping is one of the most potentially hazardous operations we do.  (Holy Captain Obvious!)  If your boat didn't come with a manual, I suggest you sit down, write a checklist of the steps involved, and follow your procedure scrupulously.  I would also strongly consider getting the GBI mast stepping system.  It's an expensive option and adds several rigging/unrigging steps to an already lengthy process.  But, it makes an otherwise hazardous process MUCH safer.  The nice thing about the GBI system is that if something goes crooked when the mast is partially up or down, you can safely stop, attend to the issue, and then resume the process.  I've been using the system for years.  It's well worth the money, especially if your boat has the Inner mast furling option, which makes the mast even heavier vs the standard mast.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
1978
Sanford, MI

________________________________
From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of peter beckerman via Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:05 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>; Todd Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Mast Base Repairs: was Delaminating tiller handle

Hi Todd,   Thanks for the response.  I had a screw pull out due to a mast raising mistake (1st time raising ie. a learning experience ....I've been having a bunch of learning experiences since I bought this boat).  I was under the impression that, more or less, the fix for a pulled screw was to drill out the threads and fill with thickened epoxy.  Some then tap threads (hard), some drill a pilot hole and use a wood screw (easier...and the approach I've been tentatively planning on pursuing), and I gather that some set the screw before the epoxy hardens, essentially glueing the screw in place.   My (limited) understanding is using the epoxy-drill-wood screw method allows the screw to pull out in case the mast levers the tabernacle.  I suppose I could alternatively epoxy a wood plug in a drilled hole and screw into that.  I know this has been discussed on the list before, at some point I'll search previous postings.
Peter
    On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 07:20:51 AM EST, Todd Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com> wrote:

 Peter,
I have not read all of the responses to your mast base bracket questions. Did the screws pull out because of water intrusion and rotted core? Or was it the result of a mast lowering mistake which lifted the bracket and pulled the screws out?The screws pulling out is the desired fail point, which keeps a mistake, like forgetting to disconnect the pop top from the mast before lowering, from ripping the top of the cabin off.
But in either case, the screws should not be screwed into anything other than the plywood core of the cabin top raised pad, if that's what you are calling the tabernacle.If a mistake while lowering the mast levered the screws out; and it were me on my boat,  I'd fill the old holes with sealer or some thinkened epoxy and drill new holes in the bracket to move the screws. If the core was wet and/or rotted I'd replace the failed core and fix it by normal (West System) methods and put the screws back in the original holes going into only the wood, and sealed.If you make a permanent epoxy repair, or heaven forbid, through bolted the base bracket, next time the damage would or could be more extensive.
Todd T.
On Tue, Nov 7, 2023, 9:47 PM peter beckerman via Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:

 Thanks to everyone for your insights,    Roger that sounds like exactly what I was looking for!  Someone else asked for clarification about the mixing ratio's, so I'll await you answer to them.  Can I assume the 209/105 combination (without the acetone) would also be suitable for fixing a pulled out tabernacle screw? That's another fix in my future and it looks like the smallest quantity they sell is a pint which is a bit more than the tiller handle requires.Thanks yet again for your expertise, you always offer excellent counsel.    Peter
    On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 11:03:11 AM EST, ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

 Hi Peter,

At one point in my career at the Dow Chemical Co, I was chief engineer at a plant where we made C fiber insulation for the, then new, C-17 cargo plane.  As I recall, a 10%wt solution of epoxy in acetone was thin enough to spray with a conventional paint sprayer.  The thinned epoxy/acetone solution would flow by capillary action along the fibers and tended to gather at the fiber/fiber intersections.  Here, the acetone would evaporate.  When the epoxy kicked off, it bound the fibers together.  I would use the West System 209 extra slow hardener and 105 resin.  Mix up the resin/acetone & hardener/acetone separately and then mix them together.  At 75 degrees F, this will give you ~45 minutes of pot life and ~24 hours to fully cure.  This will be plenty of time for the acetone to evaporate and diffuse away.  Until the epoxy kicks off, the mixture will be thin enough to inject with a hypodermic syringe.  But, you could also just brush it over the crack and let it be drawn in by capillary action.  The thinned epoxy will also soak into the wood along the crack.  So, there will be very little squeeze out.  This will greatly strengthen the repair.  Once you have the crack filled, clamp the piece to force the crack faces together and clean up any squeeze out with a cloth damp with acetone.  You will end up with a solid epoxy/wood composite that will last so long, you’ll be able to pass it down to your grandchildren.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 7, 2023, at 10:16 AM, Mark Whipple <mark at whipplefamily.com> wrote:
>
> I just repaired a delaminated tiller I got from Stan. I used epoxy and
> syringes made for use with epoxy. The epoxy I use is from a company in FL
> called RAKA and is pretty low viscosity - thinner than West as I recall.
>
> I laid down some wax paper (epoxy doesn't stick to it) and put the tiller
> on its side - after digging out as much of the gaps as possible. After
> mixing the epoxy I used the syringe to direct the epoxy into the gap. I
> clamped the tiller to close the gap. I think I probably used unthickened
> epoxy first to coat the surfaces and then added some silica to thicken it
> and put some of that in the gap as well.
>
> There were a number of gaps in this tiller and I also drilled out and
> filled several holes, so it took a few days to get it all done, but it
> looks pretty good now. I may drive some screws in from the bottom of the
> tiller to further reinforce where the cracks were.
>
> Mark
>
> Boston, MA
> 2000 R22 *When and If*
>
>> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 10:00 AM peter beckerman via Rhodes22-list <
>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,  My tiller handle has some delamination to the point that you can
>> see light through a gap in the wood.  I want to glue it back together and
>> then revarnish it.  I'm wondering if anyone has any good techniques for
>> getting glue into the gap.  I was thinking of trying to thin some glue and
>> injecting in with a small needle, but it needs to be pretty thin to force
>> it through such a tiny lumen.  Anyone know of a better approach?  Any word
>> glue that can be made pretty thin?
>> Thanks,  Peter
>>