[Rhodes22-list] Traditional Mast Backstay problem

[Kenwood _]

Everyone i've shown my backstay assembly two has also commented on how
homemade it all looks, i do most of my tensioning via the deckhouse and
forestay but the block in the back snugs up too. I would prolly have liked
to see adjustable ends but i guess theres too much slack to takeup back
there.

Its not too bad to get a set of dies for properly terminating line!
Especially if you already have a press McMaster Carr is my goto for swage
fittings and the like.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 8:14 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> Attached below is a post from the archives re an improvement in the OEM
> backstay adjuster.  The OEM backstay adjuster does not lend itself to rapid
> and reproducible adjustments.  Especially if you want to race your boat,
> this is a quick, cheap and effective project.  It doesn't affect your PHRF
> rating either!
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 1978  Sanford, MI
>
> ______________________________________________________
> I mounted a Harken #144 swiveling base with #150 CAM-MATIC cam cleat, #137
> eyestrap, #071 stand-up spring, and a 2.25" dia. block just in front of the
> starboard side backstay chainplate. The standard backstay adjuster line
> will thread up to this assembly like it was designed to be there. Thru-bolt
> the Harken swivel base to the gunnel with silicone RTV, four #10-24UNC X 1"
> stainless steel flat head machine screws and use a #10 stainless steel
> fender washer under each nut as a backing plate.
> Before drilling any holes, thread up the backstay adjuster line and
> experiment with the position of the swiveling base. You will find there is
> a sweet spot just in front of the chainplate where the line will run fairly
> into the block without chafing on the backstay or blocking the boarding
> ladder. Don't use the smaller Harken #205 swiveling base because the base
> is right near the boarding ladder & sooner or later, someone is bound to
> step on the swiveling arm. The Harken 144's swiveling arm can stand up to
> being stepped on and the 205's can't.
> The swiveling arm on the Harken 144 makes trimming the backstay adjuster
> very easy from either side of the cockpit. Be sure to mount the swiveling
> base so that the arc of the arm's movement won't allow the adjuster line to
> flop overboard. I marked my backstay adjuster line at 2" intervals with
> colored magic marker so I can reproduce the backstay tension.
> In order for the backstay adjuster to be able to cause any noticeable
> difference in lee or weather helm, you need to have the rest of the rig
> set-up properly. With only the slack taken out of the backstay tension, the
> inner (lower) shrouds have to be set quite tight. The outer (upper) shrouds
> just need to have the slack taken up. Sight up the mast and be certain the
> mast is not bent or leaning side-to-side or bent fore-and-aft.
> The mast should have a slight aft rake to it, about 2 deg max. Now when
> you tighten up the backstay, the forward lower shrouds will restrain the
> middle of the mast. The head of the mast will be pulled aft. This will
> simultaneously take up slack in the forestay and induce a slight bend in
> the mast. (Note: NOT recommended with IMF mainsails!)
> Tightening up the forestay is desirable for genoa sail shape when beating
> to weather. If your mainsail is properly cut and not blown out from old
> age, the mast bend will cause the mainsail shape to flatten out into an
> aerodynamic shape that is better for high winds and beating to weather. You
> will also move the sail plan's center of effort aft, thus inducing weather
> helm.
> This is an inexpensive modification that works so effortlessly that Stan
> ought to consider it as a factory option. My backstay adjuster has been
> absolutely bullet proof for 10 hard sailing seasons.
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 07 Jul 98
> ________________________________
> Thanks for your detailed description. Sounds like a good solution. Did you
> have any trouble getting to the back ends of the through- bolts? Seems like
> a long narrow reach. Can you get them from inside the lazarette?
> Your mention of IMF mains got me thinking, since that's what we have.
> Maybe with the furling tube adding stiffness to the spar, I won't be able
> to induce much bend anyway, so prudence on cranking down the backstay is
> probably wise. It's also likely to have some ill effect on the performance
> of the furler, if the IMF furling tube isn't straight. My new forestay has
> a turnbuckle (required by the CDI furler), so I can do more adjusting there.
> Your recommendations for adjusting the upper and lower shrouds will be
> very helpful, too. Thanks again.
> Gary Sanford
> s/v Raven
> 07 Jul 1998
> ________________________________
> The Harken 144 swiveling base is mounted on the starboard side gunnel just
> in front of the backstay chainplate. The job will require 2 people, one
> down in the lazarette to hold the wrench and a helper up topside to turn
> the screwdriver. However, the gunnel is wide enough to easily reach up
> there with a wrench. You were probably thinking the swiveling base mounted
> on the top of the transom, which would be a very long narrow reach to get
> at the thru-bolts on the backside. It turns out the top of the transom
> isn't wide enough to mount the swiveling base.
> My roller furler has a turnbuckle as well. This forestay turnbuckle is
> used to adjust the static rake of the mast when there is no backstay
> tension. For a conventional mainsail, the proper mast rake is about 2 deg
> to the rear. I don't know what an IMF mainsail requires for mast rake. You
> may have to experiment with mast rake until you get neutral helm. You may
> find the best you can do is have a slight lee helm in light air building up
> to neutral helm in a moderate breeze & then weather helm in heavy air. With
> an IMF mainsail, I would adjust the forward lower shrouds somewhat looser.
> Then, increasing backstay tension would simply increase the rearward rake
> of the mast without bending the mast. This would get you the forestay
> tension you need to be able to point to windward. The chances are your IMF
> mainsail isn't designed to respond to mast bend anyway. Remember, I have a
> fully battened conventional mainsail & I specified my mast bend parameters
> to the sailmaker when I ordered the sail. I would imagine bending an IMF
> mast & then operating the furling mechanism might cause the mainsail to
> chafe inside the mast & put a lot of stress on the furling mechanism's
> bearings. Is an IMF mast much stiffer than a conventional mast? I've never
> seen one off the boat. How much heavier is an IMF mast?
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 08 Jul 98
> ________________________________
> Had the IMF apart 2 weeks ago. Any rake would be bad news, since the
> mainsail is wrapping around a tube with roller/spacers top and bottom. If
> the tube changes distances to the mast wall I do not think the sail would
> go in (i.e. the whole thing would jam up). The IMF is about two inches more
> fore/aft and about ½ to 1-inch greater in width, than other masts on boats
> that size. It’s very stiff, but I have never seen the GB standard mast.
> MJM
> ________________________________
> The OD of the forestay wire & the rigidity of the headsail foil have very
> little to do with forestay sag. Forestay sag is primarily controlled by the
> amount of backstay tension + some secondary & tertiary effects caused by
> other details related to the way the standing rigging is setup. The use of
> 3/16" OD wire for the forestay permits the backstay adjuster to be really
> cranked down hard with no fear of forestay wire stretch or fatigue cycling.
> The use of the larger diameter wire also introduces an additional safety
> factor to compensate for corrosion, mechanical damage, etc.
> I have my backstay adjuster setup on a Harken 144 swivel base, 150
> Cam-Matic cleat, 071 stand-up spring, & 001 single 2.25" block mounted on
> the starboard side gunnel right at the transom. Backstay tension is quickly
> adjusted by pulling on the backstay control line thru the Cam-Matic cleat.
> The 144 swivel base & 150 Cam-Matic cleat allow the backstay tension to be
> adjusted from virtually any helm position. I used the 144 swivel base
> because the backstay adjuster is right near the boarding ladder where it
> might be accidentally stepped on. The large 144 swivel base is rigid enough
> to step on without damage, while the smaller Harken swivel bases can't take
> such abuse. The backstay adjuster control line is striped every 2" so that
> the backstay tension is reproducible.
> My standing rigging is setup such that increasing the backstay tension
> simultaneously reduces headstay sag & bends the mast for flattening the
> mainsail. Both actions are desirable for sail shaping in heavy air. I have
> a fully battened conventional mainsail, which is cut very roachy & is
> designed to respond to mast bend by flattening. I use only one mainsail,
> but it has 2 jiffy reef points. Needless to say, backstay tension is one of
> the most important sail shaping controls on Dynamic Equilibrium.
> Good grief! I just gave away a couple more racing secrets! Hopefully, no
> one else is listening.
> I guess I don't understand your question re noticing any difference when
> the sail is fully extended given the weight. The only fully nylon sails are
> spinnakers. Did you mean, have I ever noticed a difference in light air
> behavior between a Dacron genoa & my Cruise-Lam genoa? If that's your
> question, the answer is the bi-radial Cruise-Lam genoa has a better sail
> shape under all conditions vs. the standard Dacron genoa. In heavy air, the
> Cruise-Lam + bi-radial construction genoa's sail shape is much better as
> the standard Dacron + cross-cut construction genoa becomes hopelessly
> distorted.
> The secret of Cruise-Lam's longevity is the Dacron outer skins. The Dacron
> provides chafe, UV, fatigue resistance, & environmental pollution
> protection. The reinforcing Kevlar scrims & Mylar film core are buried
> inside the composite sandwich & are thus protected from the harsh outside
> world. Unprotected Kevlar & Mylar would be expected to only last one season
> or less in the marine environment.
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 12 Jan 2002
> ________________________________
> From: ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2024 2:06 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Traditional Mast Backstay problem
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> On S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, my 1978 Rhodes 22, I had a local wire rope
> rigging shop duplicate what I had when it was time to replace the double
> backstays.  As you described, it is one piece of cable bent in the middle
> around a SS thimble.  My backstay adjuster and sockets for the traveler bar
> are also like yours.  I used this backstay for many years with the GBI gen
> 2 traveler bar.  When it came time to upgrade to the latest Gen 3 traveler,
> it slipped right into place using the same backstays and sockets.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 1978. Sanford, MI
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 22, 2024, at 1:46 PM, Brian Ferguson <
> brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > To my fellow Rhodes traditional mast-ers,
> > My current backstay consists of a single continuous piece of ss cable run
> > bent through a thimble to mark the halfway point The thimble is the
> > connecting point to the mast head. The two cable ends have stay
> adjusters.
> > There are two single blocks on each side for a total of four, with one of
> > which having a becket. Those blocks by the way, are attached to the
> > backstay cable with a short piece of cable swaged on to the mainline.
> > (Describing it is easier than drawing a picture). I know the blocks are
> for
> > increasing the tension and adjusting underway. Bottom line, everything
> > looks very homemade.
> > The last time I asked about this, everyone said to purchase a new
> assembly
> > with the traveler bar from GB. Does the latest GB version work for a
> > traditional mast? Is there a height difference between the IMF mast and
> the
> > traditional? Or do I just make a copy of what I have?
> > Current price of the Backstay assembly is $425 if the webpage prices are
> > still accurate. Next email is to Mr Gabriel.
> > Thanks all.
> > Brian
> > NewIn76
>