[Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
Michael Meltzer
rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org
Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:16:56 -0400
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Well something has to hold the goose neck down, sound like you figure it =
out :-)
It sounds like to want to rebuild the head more than the rudder(The =
shape/layup and making up a new modled are the problem), if you can =
repair the old one and just want to rebuild the head you might be able =
to pull it off. I would subject finding a boat/owner willing to let you =
spend a hour or so with this boat and taking the key messuments/traces, =
maybe even broughting it for a week or 2 durring winter layup(Rum or =
Jonny Walker works well here :-), watch out for cleanance issue with the =
gungion/pinicals/transom, thur bolts vs blinds, where the spacers are, =
the mounting of the tiller so it remains level, etc. Stans uses =
HMUEW(roger correct me please) which will out last the boat and works =
like wood but thier might be a cost issue.
MJM
BTW, speecking of cost, you might still be better of with stan, if it =
need to be redone a few times the matrial will cost more that a used =
one. But A labor of love.........................
MJM
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Toad the Wet Sprocket=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm
MM,
Yes. Just so we are on the same page...... where my gooseneck =
connects the boom to the mast, it slides down into the groove in the =
mast where the sails luff bolt rope goes. The boom is not secured in =
the groove and slides up and down freely limited only at the bottom by a =
large cotter pin that I think is for the pop-top. I assume (don't say =
it!) (Roger) that I will have to use a boom downhaul line when I sail, =
but someone mentioned putting their boom down to the lowest setting and =
I was confused.=20
Second, I have a complete rudder assembly to use the head as a =
template. It matches in shape and style with two other similar vintage =
RC 22s I have examined, but was obviously remade by an individual that =
was not very good with tools...and never varnished or epoxy coated. =
Using the hinge plane of the pintles and parallel forward face of the =
rudder head as a reference of vertical, the blade pivots approximately =
7-10 degrees forward of this vertical. This is apparently because of =
the lousy fabrication job. After reading one of Roger's posts, I see =
how critical this travel is.=20
Straight answer?? Yesterday I couldn't spell sailor, today I are =
one. LOL
Semi-seriously, I am a licensed Elevator mechanic. If it wasn't =
for that incident with marijuana, the Mayor's daughter, and the team =
mascot...I would have finished college and got a REAL job. I am a =
certified auto mechanic, I have repaired just about anything that can be =
repaired, (except electronics). Appliances, planes trains and =
automobiles, furniture (I am a decent woodworker too). I am an =
experienced and licensed aircraft Airframe and Powerplant mechanic. I =
have done some work with epoxy and composites. Basically if it floats =
or flies, drives, fries, washes or dries.....I bet I can fix it!! Or =
f**k it up trying to get it perfect LOL Am I hired? LOL
Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com
From: "Michael Meltzer"=20
Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
To:=20
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:56:59 -0400=20
1)Do you mean that the block that in the sail track is sliding up and =
down with no pin to stop it travel?=20
2) Stright amswer please, how good are your boat building skill, =
replacing a rudder without the old one for a templet is at the adavanved =
to expert level, i.e call stan for new one or see if he can make a deal =
on a used one.=20
MJM=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Toad the Wet Sprocket=20
To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:12 AM=20
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
David, or Anyone,=20
Again, the newbie has questions. Two questions arose after reading =
your letter.=20
1. My boat is an older model and the goose neck is free =
floating....and has no "position". What method of positioning the boom =
do newer boats have?=20
2. This question is more important because I was going to be making a =
new rudder. The previous owner had made the one on there now. The rudder =
actually pivots down so far that it goes slightly past vertical and =
starts to angle foreward. Is this by design?=20
Todd=20
Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com=20
From: "David Walker"=20
Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
To:=20
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:16:41 -0400=20
Joe, the weather helm you are experiencing is most likely due to the=20
heeling. When the hull heels its geomtry relative to the water changes =
inducing whether helm. The is acutally a good thing, as when the rig =
gets=20
overpowered, the boat will autmatically tend to head up and luff the =
sails.=20
On my boat with moderate wind I can sail the 175 all the way out (full =
main=20
of course) and if I can keep her from heeling too much she is well =
balanced.=20
The amount of wind you can do this in will depend on your "movable=20
balllast". As you reef the jib, you should match with reelfing the =
main.=20
Many on the list will reccomend lowering the boom to the lower =
position as a=20
first reef. This will lower the COE of the main, but as the jib is 2x =
the=20
size of the main, its benefit is small.=20
Obvious, but also check to make sure the rudder is all the way down =
(leading=20
edge actually ahead of the pivot line).=20
Dave Walker=20
SV Windswept=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Ware, Joseph W."=20
To: "List Rhodes (E-mail)"=20
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:55 PM=20
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
> I have an IMF and 175 Genny. Under about 100% Genny the helm is =
balanced.=20
> When the Genny is pulled all the way out, and healing, there is a =
good=20
> amount of weather helm. I have to push the tiller hard to keep her =
going=20
> straight. Is normal, or is my rig set up wrong?=20
>=20
> Joe=20
> S/V Whisper=20
>=20
>=20
> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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> Notice: This e-mail message, together with any attachments, contains =
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is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in =
this=20
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message in error, please immediately return this by e-mail and then =
delete=20
it.=20
>=20
>=20
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>=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well something has to hold the goose =
neck down,=20
sound like you figure it out :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It sounds like to want to rebuild the =
head more=20
than the rudder(The shape/layup and making up a new modled are the =
problem), if=20
you can repair the old one and just want to rebuild the head you might =
be able=20
to pull it off. I would subject finding a boat/owner willing to let you =
spend a=20
hour or so with this boat and taking the key messuments/traces, maybe =
even=20
broughting it for a week or 2 durring winter layup(Rum or Jonny =
Walker=20
works well here :-), watch out for cleanance issue with the=20
gungion/pinicals/transom, thur bolts vs blinds, where the spacers are, =
the=20
mounting of the tiller so it remains level, etc. Stans uses HMUEW(roger =
correct=20
me please) which will out last the boat and works like wood but thier =
might be a=20
cost issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MJM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BTW, speecking of cost, you might still =
be better=20
of with stan, if it need to be redone a few times the matrial will cost =
more=20
that a used one. But A labor of =
love.........................</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MJM</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsprocket80@hotmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com">Toad the=20
Wet Sprocket</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org">rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 27, 2002 =
3:36=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Rhodes22-list] =
Balanced=20
Helm</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR><BR></P>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>MM,</P></DIV>
<P> Yes. Just so we are on the =
same=20
page...... where my gooseneck connects the boom to the mast, it slides =
down=20
into the groove in the mast where the sails luff bolt rope goes. =
The=20
boom is not secured in the groove and slides up and down freely =
limited=20
only at the bottom by a large cotter pin that I think is for the=20
pop-top. I assume (don't say it!) (Roger) that I will have =
to use=20
a boom downhaul line when I sail, but someone mentioned putting =
their=20
boom down to the lowest setting and I was confused. <BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> Second, I have a complete rudder =
assembly to=20
use the head as a template. It matches in shape and style =
with two=20
other similar vintage RC 22s I have examined, but was =
obviously=20
remade by an individual that was not very good with tools...and never=20
varnished or epoxy coated. Using the hinge plane of the pintles =
and=20
parallel forward face of the rudder head as a reference of vertical, =
the blade=20
pivots approximately 7-10 degrees forward of this =
vertical. This=20
is apparently because of the lousy fabrication job. After =
reading one of=20
Roger's posts, I see how critical this travel is. </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Straight answer?? Yesterday I couldn't spell =
sailor, today=20
I are one. LOL</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P> Semi-seriously, I am a licensed =
Elevator=20
mechanic. If it wasn't for that incident with marijuana, the =
Mayor's=20
daughter, and the team mascot...I would have finished college and got =
a REAL=20
job. I am a certified auto mechanic, I have repaired just =
about=20
anything that can be repaired, (except electronics). =
Appliances, planes=20
trains and automobiles, furniture (I am a decent woodworker too). I am =
an=20
experienced and licensed aircraft Airframe and Powerplant =
mechanic. I=20
have done some work with epoxy and composites. Basically =
if it=20
floats or flies, drives, fries, washes or dries.....I bet I can =
fix=20
it!! Or f**k it up trying to get it perfect LOL Am I=20
hired? LOL<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Please respond to <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:sprocket80@hotmail.com">sprocket80@hotmail.com</A></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "Michael Meltzer" <MJM@MICHAELMELTZER.COM>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To: <RHODES22-LIST@RHODES22.ORG>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:56:59 -0400=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>1)Do you mean that the block that in the sail track is =
sliding up=20
and down with no pin to stop it travel?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>2) Stright amswer please, how good are your boat building =
skill,=20
replacing a rudder without the old one for a templet is at the =
adavanved to=20
expert level, i.e call stan for new one or see if he can make a deal =
on a used=20
one.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>MJM=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: Toad the Wet Sprocket=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:12 AM=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>David, or Anyone,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Again, the newbie has questions. Two questions arose after =
reading=20
your letter.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>1. My boat is an older model and the goose neck is free=20
floating....and has no "position". What method of positioning the boom =
do=20
newer boats have?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>2. This question is more important because I was going to =
be making=20
a new rudder. The previous owner had made the one on there now. The =
rudder=20
actually pivots down so far that it goes slightly past vertical and =
starts to=20
angle foreward. Is this by design?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Todd=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Please respond to sprocket80@hotmail.com=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "David Walker"=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:16:41 -0400=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Joe, the weather helm you are experiencing is most likely =
due to=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>heeling. When the hull heels its geomtry relative to the =
water=20
changes=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>inducing whether helm. The is acutally a good thing, as =
when the=20
rig gets=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>overpowered, the boat will autmatically tend to head up and =
luff=20
the sails.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>On my boat with moderate wind I can sail the 175 all the =
way out=20
(full main=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>of course) and if I can keep her from heeling too much she =
is well=20
balanced.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>The amount of wind you can do this in will depend on your =
"movable=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>balllast". As you reef the jib, you should match with =
reelfing the=20
main.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Many on the list will reccomend lowering the boom to the =
lower=20
position as a=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>first reef. This will lower the COE of the main, but as the =
jib is=20
2x the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>size of the main, its benefit is small.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Obvious, but also check to make sure the rudder is all the =
way down=20
(leading=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>edge actually ahead of the pivot line).=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Dave Walker=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>SV Windswept=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>From: "Ware, Joseph W."=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>To: "List Rhodes (E-mail)"=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:55 PM=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Balanced Helm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> I have an IMF and 175 Genny. Under about 100% Genny =
the helm=20
is balanced.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> When the Genny is pulled all the way out, and healing, =
there=20
is a good=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> amount of weather helm. I have to push the tiller hard =
to keep=20
her going=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> straight. Is normal, or is my rig set up wrong?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Joe=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> S/V Whisper=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>----=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Notice: This e-mail message, together with any =
attachments,=20
contains=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>information of Merck & Co., Inc. (Whitehouse Station, =
New=20
Jersey, USA) that=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>may be confidential, proprietary copyrighted and/or legally =
privileged, and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity =
named in=20
this=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have =
received=20
this=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>message in error, please immediately return this by e-mail =
and then=20
delete=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>it.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
=
<DIV></DIV>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>=3D=3D=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> _______________________________________=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Subscribers, send mail to this address=20
Rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org=20
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<DIV></DIV>> http://www.sailnet.com/ -Where Sailors Get It!=20
http://www.rhodes22.org=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________=20
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