[Rhodes22-list] Mark more on Planes v Buildings

Fri Oct 13 20:10:41 EDT 2006

According to FAA press conference, plane was last observed on radar at 112
mph 1/4 mi north of building already turning left.  This suggests (if the
speed and distances reported are precise and accurate) that the speed was
slower but the turn radius tighter than my previous calculation.

The plane also dropped from 700' altitude over the river to about 500' in
the turn, which suggests to me a steep bank. 

I probably have less than 70 hours on one or more semi-realistic flight
simulator programs, so am no expert or any kind of pilot, but this seems
pretty extreme maneuver.

Jim Connolly

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Tootle
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:59 AM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Mark more on Planes v Buildings

Mark,

              This aircraft appears to have been a low wing general aviation
aircraft of much newer design than the one Brad is buying.  These aircraft
are usually good for the purpose intended.  Jim has been referencing the
technical data on the aircraft.  That is very pertinent.  Jim suggested that
the air speed was about 150 mph.  To me that speed seems a little high,
especially for flying in this air space.  I suspect that this plane does not
need that speed to remain airborne.  I am not going to the tech site for an
accurate number, but I suspect that this plane could remain airborne using
'slow flight' techniques in the 100 mph range.  That would make turning much
trickier, but I doubt that it would have increased the radius much. 

	Did this plane have a variable speed prop.  In slow flight with a
variable speed prop you best have some recent practice in stalls and
recovery.  In a limited air space and at low flight levels that is tricky
stuff best left to those with current experience or professional stunt
pilots.  That is why the Yankees required the instructor pilot.  But did
that instructor pilot have current experience with that plane, and practice
in recovery in that plane in limited air space.  

	That is the kind of stuff that Brad teaches his students on the
flight simulator.  That is, after the problem happens, correct practice in
recovery.  Problems happen, even mechanical, part of being an aircraft pilot
is anticipating problems and have a planned recovery, which often means
putting the aircraft down.  You just do not practice such stuff over the
East River in NYC.   That is what is called human error, or stupidity.  Any
mechanical problem should have had a thought out escape to at least the
water.

Ed K
Greenville, SC, USA

quote author='L. Sailor'>
The BOFH lives among us!

HA!

elle

--- Brad Haslett <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> Yes, an equipment malfunction is quite possible.  If the PIC 
> experienced an anal/optical reversion it could result in losing 
> control of the aircraft.
> 
> Brad
> 
> On 10/12/06, mputnam1 at aol.com <mputnam1 at aol.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > You all know flying.  I don't.  But is it possible
> the plane was out of
> > control and doing those turns on its own because
> of an equipment
> > malfunction?
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jbconnolly at comcast.net
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Sent: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 8:01 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Planes v Buildings
> >
> >
> > I did a calculation, and at 156 knot cruise
> (Cirrus Design web site) and
> > maximum turn radius of 0.2 miles, that works out
> to about a 2-g turn
> > minimum, more if he were flying up the middle of
> the river and had to turn
> > tighter.  Is that not a bit aggressive for a
> rookie pilot and a private
> > plane?
> >
> > Jim Connolly
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of mputnam1 at aol.com
> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:29 PM
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Planes v Buildings
> >
> > I think I remember seeing a live interview with
> one of the eyewitnesses on
> > CNN yesterday ... and they said that the airplane
> did some tight turns and
> > plowed into the building ...
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jbconnolly at comcast.net
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Sent: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 6:51 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Planes v Buildings
> >
> >
> > Noticed an interesting thing when comparing the
> CNN photo of the building
> > with Google Earth and the description of the
> accident.  He was supposedly
> > flying north along the East River from circling
> the Statue of Liberty.
> > Photo shows that he impacted about center of north
> wall of the building,
> > so
> > he must have made (at least) one 180-degree turn
> from somewhere over the
> > East River.  Assuming that he was flying along the
> east riverbank, that is
> > a
> > turn radius of at most 0.22 miles.  I have no
> reference, but it sounds
> > like
> > a pretty tight turn at 150+ miles per hour.
> >
> > Anyone?
> >
> > Jim Connolly
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of Brad Haslett
> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:17 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Planes v Buildings
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I'm a bit rusty on FAA part 91 regs but I think
> buildings still have the
> > right-of-way.  I checked out on the Citation jet
> at Flight Safety not long
> > after Thurmon Munson field tested his.  My sim
> partner and I dubbed the
> > airplane the Munson burner.  FS didn't think it
> was funny.
> >
> > Rik,
> >
> > Just wait, Congress will get involved and make all
> small airplanes carry
> > devices to watch out for jumping buildings.
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Yep, the forked-tail doctor killer.  This one is a
> 48' with a ton of mods.
> > It looks like a P model with the rear window and
> stinger tail.  I really
> > wanted a G model (year I was born) but this one
> was too good to pass up.
> > It's got a modern T-formation panel and a pretty
> nice stack of avionics.
> > I've been following the Mooney M20C market closely
> for the last year but
> > finally decided I wanted a bit more room.  The
> early Bonanzas (Continental
> > E-225-8 engine) can get an STC for auto-gas which
> saves a buck and a half
> > per gallon.  This one has the STC and an aft 20
> gallon aux tank.  I figure
> > if I get it to altitude on avgas and then switch
> over to 93 octane from
> > Arco
> > I can get the fuel costs  below that of the Mooney
> at ten more knots and a
> > lot more comfort. Twenty gallons is about two
> hours at altitude - the
> > MEM-GPT leg is slightly less than two hours.  I
> sent off for the title
> > search today and am having the seller send an oil
> sample off to the lab
> > for
> > analysis.  If it passes the pre-purchase
> inspection, I should be able to
> > fly
> > her home from Prescott, AZ next week.
> >
> > Brad
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
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> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> >
>
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