[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Reasoning with Ignorance
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Wed Oct 25 14:18:42 EDT 2006
Ed,
I couldn't agree more. But, please, lets label the politics.
Bill
Tootle wrote:
> Phillip:
>
> A long time ago I learned that you cannot reason with
> ignorance. Here in the good old USA we have people who base their beliefs
> on what appears to others as ignorance. After I moved to Greenville, SC,
> years ago I was introduced to a population that lived on the west side of
> the City of Greenville. They were mostly from a town called City View. At
> that time it was a town in the true sense. It had a mayor, city hall, fire
> department, etc. What got your attention were the ‘people’.
> Me and my kind were always trying to better ourselves and get ahead. With
> these people I was introduced to a population who were ignorant and proud of
> it. They did not want to get ahead, nor improve their lot. No amount of
> trying to get them to change their way of thinking worked. Many tried and
> they just did not get anywhere. It was an amazing experience.
> One unique think about that population was how you knew who they were. You
> could smell them coming. They simply did not believe in baths. They did
> not observe simple personal hygiene.
> The above is an illustration that there are other people in the world.
> What you believe to be good reason just may not be accepted by others. When
> that happens you just move on or out of the way. In sailor talk, trying to
> reason with all others sometimes is like pissing into the wind.
>
> Ed K
> Greenville, SC, USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 3drecon wrote:
>
>> If I have (or had) $100,000.00 coming, I sure would like to know where to
>> get it. I say again, I received no bonus, I receive no bonus other than
>> the basic compensation for someone in service with my rank and longevity.
>> The only signing bonus I ever received was $1800.00 when I joined the USMC
>> in 1972 to because I had elected infantry as my MOS.
>>
>> Line officers, warrent officers and senior NCOs receive NO bonuses. Only
>> Doctors, and Dentists. Pilots get routine flight pay, paratroops get jump
>> pay (but they have to put in so many jumps per month), submariners get
>> submarine pay etc. These are all hardship compensation that stops when
>> they leave that duty.
>>
>> Philip
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>
>>
>>> Hank,
>>>
>>> Philip said people who complain about casualties can't explain
>>> reenlistment rates. I said that signing bonuses explain reenlistment
>>> rates.
>>>
>>> I infer from your note that Philip is an officer and received a "signing
>>> bonus" or some other military euphemism for "huge amount of money paid
>>> to induce people to risk their lives". It is my understanding that some
>>> of these payments are in excess of $100,000. Do I have that wrong?
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>> Hank wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill,
>>>>
>>>> Once again, you spoke with thinking or checking your facts. Officers
>>>> do not
>>>> re-enlist. Re-enlistment bonuses are only paid to enlisted. Some
>>>> Officers
>>>> in certain specialties such as Doctors and Dentists get yearly bonuses
>>>> but
>>>> this is because of their extensive training and desparity with pay in
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> civilian sector.
>>>>
>>>> Hank
>>>>
>>>> On 10/25/06, Bill Effros wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brad,
>>>>>
>>>>> As Philip well knows, the Army is paying huge reenlistment bonuses. In
>>>>> fact, I believe Philip was one of the recipients.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no problem with that, but let's not confuse a mercenary army
>>>>>
>>> with
>>>
>>>>> a patriotic army.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>> 3drecon at comcast.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brad,
>>>>>> The point Ron made about the soldier casualties is a common
>>>>>>
>>>>> complaint. What they cannot explain is why the reenlistment and
>>>>> extension
>>>>> rate is higher for those who have gone to the "sandbox" than in the
>>>>> general
>>>>> population. Everyone, (I say again) Everyone, in the military to-day
>>>>> is a
>>>>> volunteer. No one, at this point in time, can say they didn't expect
>>>>> to go
>>>>> to war (that might have been an argument in 2001 but not now, an
>>>>> argument
>>>>> for which I have little sympathy. The military is not here for social
>>>>> benefit but for fighting).
>>>>>
>>>>>> LTC Philip Esteban
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------- Original message --------------
>>>>>> From: "Brad Haslett"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Common leftest screed (thank-you Bill) , I've read your post twice
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Ron
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>>> still can't find any new ideas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to North Korea, I believe it was the "negotiations" and
>>>>>>>
>>>>> appeasement
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the previous administration that got us into this mess. How should
>>>>>>>
>>> we
>>>
>>>>>>> respond? We have roughly 30,000 of our own troops in harms way on
>>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>> border (been there since the 50's) plus several million South
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Koreans.
>>>>> The
>>>>>
>>>>>>> North can lob 5000 conventional shells at once and we have to
>>>>>>>
>>> figure
>>>
>>>>> out
>>>>>
>>>>>>> which one contains the nuke. Yes indeed, what a mess. Our best hope
>>>>>>>
>>>>> there
>>>>>
>>>>>>> is help from China. More troops on the ground would only mean more
>>>>>>>
>>>>> troops
>>>>>
>>>>>>> killed in the first day. We should think twice about allowing a
>>>>>>>
>>>>> similar
>>>>>
>>>>>>> situation with another rouge nation developing again, hence our
>>>>>>>
>>>>> invasion of
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Iraq. After all, regime change was the official policy of the
>>>>>>>
>>> Clinton
>>>
>>>>>>> administration. Let me repeat this one more time - the
>>>>>>>
>>>>> authorization to
>>>>>
>>>>>>> invade Iraq was approved by the Congress. Of course some will say
>>>>>>>
>>> for
>>>
>>>>>>> political reasons they were duped, but they had access to the same
>>>>>>> intel - politics as usual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How many Iraqi citizens were killed by Saddam? A hell of a lot more
>>>>>>>
>>>>> than
>>>>>
>>>>>>> by our invasion. How many more will be killed if we leave. John
>>>>>>>
>>> Kerry
>>>
>>>>>>> estimated less than 300,000 in Vietnam. He was only off by 3
>>>>>>>
>>> million.
>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think we should do Ron, pull out and declare victory?
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Well,
>>>>> if
>>>>>
>>>>>>> so, why quit at half-measures. Let's disband the TSA and eliminate
>>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> long
>>>>>
>>>>>>> line at the airports. After all, we have no enemies from the crazy
>>>>>>>
>>>>> fringe
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of the Islamic world, right? Let's kiss and make up with the
>>>>>>>
>>>>> French so
>>>>>
>>>>>>> they'll come to our side and bravely fight, just as they are in
>>>>>>>
>>> their
>>>
>>>>> own
>>>>>
>>>>>>> country right now. Ah yes, those wonderful allies we pissed off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Please
>>>>>
>>>>>>> remind me who we offended that weren't trading goods with Saddam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Germany,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> nope! Russia, nope! China, silly question! I forget, help me here,
>>>>>>>
>>>>> who
>>>>>
>>>>>>> are these allies again?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This war is ugly, they all are. We went for the right reasons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> What we
>>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>>>> seeing now is not unlike Tet in Vietnam. We won that remember, and
>>>>>>>
>>>>> then
>>>>>
>>>>>>> gave the enemy time to regroup at the peace table. Indeed, history
>>>>>>>
>>>>> can
>>>>> be a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> bitch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/24/06, Ronald Lipton wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New idea? Better ideas?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Did I think invading Iraq was a good idea? NO
>>>>>>>> Were there weapons of mass distruction - NO
>>>>>>>> Were there real terrorist bases - NO
>>>>>>>> Did we give any thought to the internal politics? NO
>>>>>>>> Did we alienate our allies by our arrogance? YES.
>>>>>>>> Have we crippled our volunteer forces by throwing
>>>>>>>> away lives in a worse than useless situation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many soldiers have been killed? (~2900)
>>>>>>>> Maimed - many more
>>>>>>>> How many Iraqi civilians?
>>>>>>>> How many of their families blame the US and will take up
>>>>>>>>
>>> terrorism?
>>>
>>>>>>>> We have been weakened to the point that we can't
>>>>>>>> effectively respond to real threats from N. Korea.
>>>>>>>> God what a mess.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't see any real thought given to actions which gravely
>>>>>>>> affect the US and the rest of the world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't want to see this country continue to be run by a group
>>>>>>>> of idiots and ideologues who seem to be completely disconnected
>>>>>>>> from reality. If soldiers are put in harms way there should be a
>>>>>>>> good reason. I see nothing but negative consequences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do I have better Ideas? It's like asking someone pushed out
>>>>>>>> of a window - how to get back up there?
>>>>>>>> Is there any path out of this mess - you tell me, but I believe
>>>>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>>>>> this is the most disastrous administration in the history of this
>>>>>>>> country. Nero probably did a worse job for Rome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2006, at 10:42 PM, Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the post. There are letters like this quite often on
>>>>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>>>> milblogs I frequent. Also, I have a co-worker with a Marine son
>>>>>>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Iraq who
>>>>>>>>> forwards updates from time to time. This may be a SHOCK to the
>>>>>>>>> lefties in
>>>>>>>>> the world but our military is all volunteer and for the most part
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> very
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> motivated. The reaction you got on the list was predictable and
>>>>>>>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>>>>>>> unlike
>>>>>>>>> the reactions from the usual suspects anytime something that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> fit
>>>>>>>>> their perceptions gets published. They get the New York times
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> version
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> reality everyday from someone who's never been out of the Green
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Zone
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> believe that, but gawd forbid they listen to the wisdom of a
>>>>>>>>>
>>> common
>>>
>>>>>>>>> foot-soldier. No one likes this war, or any war for that matter,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> kid in the letter pretty much nailed it. We fight them there now
>>>>>>>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>> later. Did you see on the news this evening that youths are
>>>>>>>>>
>>> burning
>>>
>>>>>>>>> buses
>>>>>>>>> in France? Nope? What kind of youths? Of course the French can't
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> say
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it. Radical Islamists! Keep your head in the sand folks. This
>>>>>>>>>
>>> ain't
>>>
>>>>>>>>> goin'
>>>>>>>>> away anytime soon. We can argue about the methods or the chosen
>>>>>>>>> battlefield
>>>>>>>>> but the war declared by them a long time ago. What was our first
>>>>>>>>> reaction? Wear sweaters!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's what really pisses me off. Where are the new ideas? All I
>>>>>>>>> hear this
>>>>>>>>> election cycle is let's tuck tail and run, then hope for the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> best. Is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> a strategy? Criticism and disagreement is one thing - attempting
>>>>>>>>> dialogue
>>>>>>>>> with, or worse, ignoring enemies who want to cut your head off is
>>>>>>>>> stupid. Oh
>>>>>>>>> I forget, cutting off heads is only for old time's sake, until
>>>>>>>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>>>>>>> can get
>>>>>>>>> their WMD programs running again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/23/06, Bob Keller wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Got this from my brother and wanted to pass it on.
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is from a co-worker at HP who's son left for Iraq today.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> This
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> me directly from his Dad. I will be getting periodic updates
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> from
>>>
>>>>> him
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> will forward. I will take the last name off so as to protect his
>>>>>>>>>> privacy,
>>>>>>>>>> but forward on, because these brave troops need our continued
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> support
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> prayers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well after months and months of yakking about it the day is
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> finally
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> here?well almost here, just have to go to sleep tonight (we'll
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> see
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> that) and it'll be here tomorrow. I'm sure pretty much everyone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wondering what I'm thinking right now, what are my feelings,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> and all
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> other stuff?I guess I'm going to be super-cool and spill it for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> you,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> because I'm that awesome. :c)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm ready to get going, and I have been ready since my last
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> visit to
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Colorado?sitting around here this last week or so is just awful,
>>>>>>>>>> waiting
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> never fun?gives you too much time to think, and a lot of the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> time
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>> gets you in trouble. I am ready to wage this war against
>>>>>>>>>> militant-Islam,
>>>>>>>>>> because it is something that absolutely has to be done. Some
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> look at
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Iraq
>>>>>>>>>> and just see Saddam and WMD and that MY BOSS was wrong to go in
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> there
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (btw
>>>>>>>>>> we found enough WMD to kill everyone in Baghdad, but I guess you
>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> hear
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> or read about that anywhere, ask me if you really want
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> details?oh,
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Saddam really was a horrible asshole?pardon my language to both
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> my
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> grandmothers?), but it is well past that point?Iraq is the line
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sand
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> between civilized nations and Islamic fascism, because whether
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>> believe it or not, there are a large group of people out there
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> who
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and everyone else dead unless you convert to their way of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> thinking.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> great thing about Iraq is that all these idiots have decided it
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> is a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>> easier to fight us there than it is to come to the United
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> States and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>>>>> you?which I am fine with, because I'm going to be so horribly
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> well
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> armed
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> armored that I welcome their best shot at destroying everything
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> dedicated my life to defend.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While I'm gone I encourage all of you to live it up for me?I
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> can't
>>>
>>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> you all should do it double for me?take those extra few days
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> off of
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>> take that trip, try for that double on your dirt bike, fish
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> that run
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> more time, let your kid stay up that extra 15 minutes, stay in
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> duck-blind 15 more minutes after you think the birds have
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> stopped
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> flying,
>>>>>>>>>> drink that extra drink?I think you get the idea?everyone has
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> area in
>>>>>>>>>> their life where they can indulge, so I encourage you all to do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> it
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> for me.
>>>>>>>>>> The only thing that I am worried about going into Iraq is
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> letting my
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> guys
>>>>>>>>>> down, letting all of you down, and letting my country down; and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>>>> can
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>> you with all of my heart that it is NOT in my intention to do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> any of
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> things. I promise you all that I will be careful, but at the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> same
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> time I
>>>>>>>>>> promise that I will kick the ever-living CRAP out of anyone that
>>>>>>>>>> presents
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> threat to me or you...they WILL die, and they'll do it before I
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> do.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> war is the most important war that has been fought since WW2,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> easily,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> more so. The things that we do tomorrow and in the next five
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> years
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> shape the world as we know it for centuries to come?if we leave
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Iraq
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> we win the fight then all of the western world is in danger,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> just
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>>> that?and I will elaborate on that fact in the future. So happy
>>>>>>>>>> trails to
>>>>>>>>>> all of you, and I will frequently be in touch, just say a 'lil
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> prayer
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and I'll do alright.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> God Bless and Love,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matthew
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1st Cavalry Division, Ft. Hood TX
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Try the next generation of search with Windows Live Search
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> today!
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-
>>>>>>>>> us&source=hmtagline
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
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