[Rhodes22-list] Respect

pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net
Thu Oct 23 09:11:43 EDT 2008 

Ben,

I hope you don't leave.  Your posts are interesting and well thought out.

Let me give you a little diffrent perspective.  I'm right of center.  I
find myself almost always agreeing with Brad's posts.  But, if we're going
to lose this election, as seems likely, I need something to help me
believe that maybe the next four years won't be as bad as I fear.  Your
posts help me to do that.

Best Regards,
Paul
>
> Paul;
>
> I appreciate the sentiment.  Thanks for the thought. Frankly, I'm
> reassessing my role here and whether it makes sense to participate
> further,
> at least as to the political stuff.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ben C.
>
> pdgrand wrote:
>>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I'm not Jb but I'd like to weigh in on the subject.  As I said in the
>> past, I used to especially enjoy the political debating between Brad &
>> Bill in past election cycles.  They didn't get personal and they kept it
>> respectful.  Bill seems to be sitting this one out, leaving you, Pete &
>> some others to lead the arguements for the left against Brad, Herb & Ed
>> on
>> the right.  Personally, I don't recall reading anything from you that I
>> would term offensive.  Others obviously disagree.  Discussing politics
>> often evokes different levels of emotion in different people.  Let's
>> keep
>> the lively debate going, but everyone needs to work on not taking things
>> personally or getting personal with a reply to what may only be a
>> perceived insult (which you have done for the most part).  In other
>> words,
>> everyone just needs to lighten up.
>>
>> Paul
>>>
>>> Dear Jb;
>>>
>>> I am curious.  Do you see no problem with Ed's post at the beginning of
>>> this
>>> thread? Is it OK for members to call each other such vile names as
>>> marxist
>>> or refer to them being co-conspirators in a fraud?  I know your opinion
>>> about what I said.  What is your opinion of what Ed said, not as it
>>> relates
>>> to me but as it relates generally to behavior of forum members? Do you
>>> find
>>> such invective entertaining?  I'm trying to be serious here for a
>>> moment.
>>> I
>>> am interested in your opinion because I haven't skirmished with you
>>> before
>>> and I really want a fresh thought on this?  Are you willing to put
>>> aside
>>> the
>>> "reparte" for a moment and address this subject? You talk, I'll listen.
>>>
>>> Ben C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>> My pic is at the end of the post.     jb.jpg
>>>> Jb
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking at my screen, but can't say for sure. I see black, and
>>>>> see
>>>>> white in your post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both are extremes.
>>>>>
>>>>> You realize, it's all tongue in cheek don't you?
>>>>>
>>>>> We both know the truth. Ben was putting out a stupid threat, and was
>>>>> probably embarrassed that anyone called him on it.... OK, I'll be
>>>>> honest, probably embarrassed that anyone besides ME called him on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I never liked it when the kids at school pumped out their chests like
>>>>> they were ready to fight. I always thought the real fun was watching
>>>>> them back down.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, I'm an extremist, and probably do look like one.
>>>>>
>>>>> But then, there are worst things in life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>> > Herb.
>>>>> > do I look like an extreamist?
>>>>> > Jb
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > hparsons wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Ahhh, good to know I'm not the only extremist that saw it that
>>>>> way.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Maybe you should look a little closer at how you worded things
>>>>> Ben....
>>>>> >> I'm not the only one ....
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> JbTek wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> Ben C.
>>>>> >>> I meant were you threatening to sue. That's what it read like to
>>>>> me.
>>>>> >>> I think name calling is allowed on this list, or at least
>>>>> tolerated
>>>> but
>>>>> >>> threats are not.
>>>>> >>> Jb
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>> >>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:16 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or leading
>>>>> ...
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> Do you mean, was Ed threatening to charge me as a
>>>>> co-conspirator?
>>>>> It
>>>>> >>>> sure
>>>>> >>>> sounded like that to me. Or did you mean was Ed threatening to
>>>>> label
>>>> me
>>>>> >>>> as
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> a
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> marxist? Sure sounded that way to me. Was I threatening to sue
>>>>> Ed?
>>>> No,
>>>>> >>>> but
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> I
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> was gently suggesting that if I did not have such a wonderfully
>>>>> >>>> developed
>>>>> >>>> sense of humor a person in my position (libeled by him) might
>>>>> have
>>>> such
>>>>> >>>> options and he ought not call people defamatory names.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Ben C.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I got a question or you....was that a threat?
>>>>> >>>>> Jb
>>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>> >>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:39 AM
>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>>>>> leading
>>>> ...
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Ed;
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Will you answer some questions for me? What is a marxist as
>>>>> you
>>>>> see
>>>>> >>>>>> it?
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> What
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> makes me a marxist in your view?  Does the 1st Amendment to
>>>>> our
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Constitution
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> immunize folks who libel other folks? Does calling someone a
>>>> marxist
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>> who
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>> is
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> not in fact a marxist constitute defamation of character? Do
>>>>> you
>>>> have
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>> any
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>> life savings?  Inquiring minds want to know?
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Have a nice day.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Obama intentionally and cynically has misled the public about
>>>>> his
>>>>> >>>>>>> relationship with Ayers.  This issue isn't going away and it
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> shouldn't
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> go away.  Speculation is strong and the evidence is growing
>>>>> that
>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>>>> Obama and Ayers relationship goes all the way back to Obama's
>>>>> days
>>>> in
>>>>> >>>>>>> NYC at Columbia (Ayers was there at the same time and they
>>>>> were
>>>> both
>>>>> >>>>>>> friends of Dr. Saed) and that Ayers actually ghost authored
>>>> Obama's
>>>>> >>>>>>> first book (the word count and sentence structure mirrors
>>>>> Ayer's
>>>>> >>>>>>> writing and was written at a 12th grade level, Obama's second
>>>>> book
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> was
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> written at a 9th grade level).  But let's forget speculation
>>>>> for
>>>>> a
>>>>> >>>>>>> moment and stick with what is known.  I'm posting a link
>>>>> instead
>>>> of
>>>>> >>>>>>> the article so you can see the photo.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>> http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/20/obama-praised-searing-timely-book-ayers/
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> We know from tax returns from the Annenberg Challenge that
>>>>> Obama,
>>>>> >>>>>>> Ayers, and Klonsky all had offices on the same floor of the
>>>>> same
>>>>> >>>>>>> building. Michelle and Ayers' wife both worked at the same
>>>>> law
>>>> firm.
>>>>> >>>>>>> Obama and Ayers appeared at joint speaking engagements (which
>>>>> by
>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>>>> way, Illinois ethics law prohibits receiving fees for
>>>>> speaking
>>>>> but
>>>>> >>>>>>> Obama's tax returns show "speaker fees" during the period he
>>>>> was
>>>> in
>>>>> >>>>>>> the Illinois Senate, another MSM oversight).
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> "Just a guy in my neighborhood with a degree in English"
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> That was willful intent to decieve and the MSM has for the
>>>>> most
>>>> part
>>>>> >>>>>>> let him get away with it.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> The man is a liar, if he were on trial he would certainly be
>>>> guilty
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> of
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> perjury - and he may well be, soon.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Brad
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Tootle
>>>>> <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ben said, "... Since I socialize mostly with folks in my own
>>>>> >>>>>>>> socioeconomic
>>>>> >>>>>>>> class, while most support Obama, ..."  The term leadership
>>>> comprises
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> many
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> atributes.  And part of what are call traditional values is
>>>> simple
>>>>> >>>>>>>> honesty.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sometimes honesty requires analysis of what is going on and
>>>> saying
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> hey,
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> "
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> America, we have a problem..."
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ben discounted the Bill Ayers thing.  Even if he is a
>>>>> Marxist
>>>>> as
>>>> is
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Bill
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ayers, he as an American has an obligation to speak the
>>>>> truth.
>>>> In
>>>>> >>>>>>>> America a
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marxist is obligated to tell the truth and not lie about it.
>>>>> So
>>>> it
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> goes
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> with his candidate Obama.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> So what are the elements of Conspiracy?  If you know or
>>>>> should
>>>> have
>>>>> >>>>>>>> reasonable known something?  Are you obligated to say
>>>>> something?
>>>> If
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> you
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> do
>>>>> >>>>>>>> not say anything are you a coconspirator?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> In Ben's case I have to ask, if a fraud is being commited is
>>>>> he
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> obligated
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>>>> speak out?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> The above is why I routinely for years have quoted:
>>>>> >>>>>>>> In Germany they first came for the Communists
>>>>> >>>>>>>>    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>  Then they came for the Jews,
>>>>> >>>>>>>>    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists
>>>>> >>>>>>>>     and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then they came for the Catholics
>>>>> >>>>>>>>     and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>  Then they came for me
>>>>> >>>>>>>>    and by that time no one was left to speak up.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>  --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German
>>>> Confessing
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Church
>>>>> >>>>>>>> who spent seven years in a concentration camp.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ben said, "... I, on the other hand, wish there were no
>>>> connection
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> at
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>> all
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> because then we could argue about policy instead of who knew
>>>>> who,
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> where
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> and
>>>>> >>>>>>>> when, and what possible difference it makes."
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is this an admission of an issue?  Saying that because most
>>>> others
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> deny
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>>>>> connection is using Richard Nixon's arguement that everybody
>>>>> else
>>>> in
>>>>> >>>>>>>> politics did it, therefore it was o.k.  Saying his friends
>>>>> deny
>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> issue
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> does not make it go away.  It is Richard Nixon's arguement
>>>>> all
>>>> over
>>>>> >>>>>>>> again.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wasn't Nixon a lawyer?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does law school teach ask the hard questions in court, but
>>>>> do
>>>>> not
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> ask
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> them
>>>>> >>>>>>>> of yourself?  Are lawyers above the law?  Inquiring minds
>>>>> want
>>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> know?
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>> >>>>>>>> attachment for Andrew:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20084939/Andrew%2527s%2Bversion.jpg
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andrew%27s+version.jpg
>>>>> >>>>>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20084939.html
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>> list
>>>> go
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> to
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>> list
>>>> go
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>> to
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20093092.html
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>> go
>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>> go
>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>> >>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20099555.html
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>> go
>>>> to
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>> go
>>>>> to
>>>>> >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>> go
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> > http://www.nabble.com/file/p20100644/Jb.jpg
>>>>> >
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>> to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20101056.html
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
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>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20122113.html
> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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