[Rhodes22-list] Re spect
Michael D. Weisner
mweisner at ebsmed.com
Fri Oct 24 13:24:05 EDT 2008
Jb,
I also just took the test and was surprised to find how alike we scored:
On Non-Fiscal Issues, you rank as a Centrist (42).
On Fiscal Issues, you rank as a Moderate Conservative (68).
Verrrry interesting, as the gent on Laugh-In used to say ...
Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY
From: "Just bent" <j.bulfer at jbtek.com>Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:13 PM
>
> took the test.
>
> On Non-Fiscal Issues, you rank as a Centrist (60).
> On Fiscal Issues, you rank as a Moderate Conservative (75).
>
> Jb
>
>
>
> David Bradley wrote:
>>
>> The past day's exchange got me thinking about what does it mean to be
>> moderate and what does it mean to be extreme and who among us really
>> represents the "middle" of America (per your comment, Brad).
>>
>> I think the stats would say the middle of America in political
>> spectrum terms is undecided at the moment on who to vote for.
>>
>> So I did a quick search on "politcal spectrum test" and tried one of
>> the self-tests (not to be confused with the Asshole self-test). I
>> have no idea how valid or invalid the methodology might be but I
>> thought it was interesting and it pegged me right where I see myself
>> (see the test output here):
>>
>> On Non-Fiscal Issues, you rank as a Moderate Liberal (26).
>> On Fiscal Issues, you rank as a Centrist (49).
>> Your score is on a scale of 0 to 100, with 0 being fully liberal and
>> 100 being fully conservative.
>>
>> Here is the link: http://www.politicalbrew.com/politest.cgi
>>
>> Give it a try.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Your right, you provided the label, and I kept it. It's sarcasm.
>>>
>>> You initially labeled my position extreme:
>>> "I understand that neither you nor I would not display such a sticker,
>>> but I think that your *ultimate position* is extreme"
>>> (my emphasis).
>>>
>>> Now you seem to be parsing things a bit, or clarification, whichever you
>>> prefer, and state that is not my belief that's extreme, but rather my
>>> action.
>>>
>>> "And so it goes. Standing up for ones beliefs does not make one extreme.
>>> The proposed action was viewed as extreme, not the belief nor the
>>> person."
>>>
>>> I can't quite discern the difference between "position" and "belief" in
>>> this context, but I'll give it to you anyway:
>>>
>>> An extremist is one who is extreme, holds extreme views, or participates
>>> in extreme actions. As I stated, I added the "ist". And, I do enjoy the
>>> label, when I use it, I use it sarcastically, because I think your label
>>> is foolishness. However, whether it's accurate, inaccurate, enjoyed, or
>>> despised, you did indeed label my action as "extreme". And it's I that
>>> you labeled extreme, so the "ist" is appropriate.
>>>
>>> A little more on the belief, position, action, whatever, that you found
>>> extreme:
>>>
>>> I think the "freedom of speech" issue is one of the most misunderstood,
>>> and misinterpreted, parts of our constitution.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry my friend, you have little guarantee to the right of freedom
>>> of speech. You are not guaranteed that you can freely speak your
>>> opinions, or that doing so will not have repercussions. Go back and
>>> re-read the first amendment. What you DO have is a constitutional
>>> guarantee that the GOVERNMENT will not abridge your freedom of speech.
>>>
>>> I'm not the government. I can abridge your freedom of speech, and am
>>> allowed to do so through a wide variety of methods.
>>>
>>> If I tell a merchant that I will never purchase something from him
>>> because I think his sales of material advocating the murder of a
>>> Presidential candidate is wrong, I am doing nothing wrong, nor am I
>>> taking away any of his freedoms, I'm merely exercising one of my own.
>>>
>>> As a matter fact, I would have the same option to personally boycott him
>>> for his political views (though I personally would not).
>>>
>>> The latter I would view as extreme. The former, not so much. And if it
>>> is, then it's only because we've become such a nation of panty-waists
>>> that we fear the repercussions of doing the right thing.
>>>
>>> I have no problem whatsoever telling a merchant that's selling a picture
>>> of Obama with a scope target on him, comparing him to Martin Luther
>>> King, that he's wrong, and I won't do business with him (which is what I
>>> did in this case, though I never heard back).
>>>
>>> And, as I answered in your question, I'd do the same with the boss of my
>>> company.
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>>>> Herb,
>>>>
>>>> Actually, you adopted the label "extreme", I merely commented on your
>>>> position. You actually appeared to enjoy displaying your self adopted
>>>> descriptor (read the last referenced post.) The exchange went as
>>>> follows:
>>>>
>>>> from HParsons:
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055687.html
>>>> I think someone needs to print bumper stickers that say:
>>>> "Palin for VP"from MWeisner:
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055696.html
>>>> Herb,
>>>> Just for you, I found these sites:
>>>> {link}, {link}
>>>> Both featuring Palin bumper stickers. The Zazzle site has my
>>>> favorites.
>>>> Herb's bumper sticker:
>>>> "I'm voting for Sarah
>>>> and that guy she's running with"
>>>> {link}
>>>> "I'm Pullin' For Pallin"
>>>> {link}
>>>> and let's not forget the real reason that she's on the ticket:
>>>> "Sarah Palin
>>>> Hockey Mom I'd Like to Puck"
>>>>
>>>> from HParsons:
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055716.html
>>>> Frazzle had some interesting ones, and some I even like, but sorry, I
>>>> couldn't purchase from a company that was selling this one: {link} I
>>>> think sometimes people let "freedom of speech" go too far. That was a
>>>> an
>>>> example.
>>>>
>>>> from MWeisner:
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055721.html
>>>> As far as the "NOBAMA ..." goes, I tend to think that it is in bad
>>>> taste, but I hesitate to place restrictions on "freedom of speech" - I
>>>> think that is called censure. Who are the people that "let 'freedom
>>>> of
>>>> speech' go too far?"
>>>>
>>>> Why couldn't you purchase from a company that permits people to
>>>> display bad taste? I would think that there are very few companies
>>>> that
>>>> you can purchase from in the world today, if this is your yardstick for
>>>> doing business. Can you purchase from Wal-Mart? They will place most
>>>> anything that sells on their shelves.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that neither you nor I would not display such a sticker,
>>>> but I think that your ultimate position is extreme.
>>>>
>>>> from HParsons:
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2008-October/055728.html
>>>> "Couldn't" might have been the wrong word, wouldn't is likely more
>>>> appropriate. I think people totally misunderstand the "Freedom of
>>>> Speech" issue. Yes, by all means this company has the right to sell
>>>> them, and I would in no means want to legally restrict that right.
>>>>
>>>> However, I not only have the right, but I feel I have the moral duty
>>>> to determine for myself, who I'm going to support.
>>>>
>>>> When a company feels it's proper (and I believe it goes beyond "bad
>>>> taste") to sell bumper stickers advocating the killing of another human
>>>> being because of their distaste for that person, that's enough for me
>>>> that I would not purchase from them.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Wal-Mart has things that are in bad taste, but not that bad. I
>>>> don't mind buy from a Wal-Mart that sells cigarettes, nor do I mind
>>>> buying from one that sells ashtrays that say "put your butt here" and
>>>> shaped like a pig's butt. However, if they sold KKK banners, I'd be
>>>> shopping elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Call it extreme if you like, I don't mind being extreme.
>>>> And so it goes. Standing up for ones beliefs does not make one
>>>> extreme.
>>>> The proposed action was viewed as extreme, not the belief nor the
>>>> person.
>>>>
>>>> Herb is a self titled extremist, although he has no argument against
>>>> his
>>>> claim from me.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> s/v Shanghaid'd Summer ('81)
>>>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>Sent: Thursday, October
>>>> 23,
>>>> 2008 4:15 AM
>>>> Actually, it was Michael Weisner that labeled me "extreme" (I added the
>>>> "ist", but it's just another way to say the same thing) because, get
>>>> this - I said I wouldn't purchase a bumper sticker from a company the
>>>> also sells bumper stickers advocating the killing of a political
>>>> candidate. That was an "extreme" position according to Michael. So, I
>>>> adopted the label. It probably does fit me, but wow.... Standing up for
>>>> what you believe is no "extreme". Sad state of affairs.
>>>>
>>>> As to the asshole thing - "Some frequency"???? I think maybe you should
>>>> go back and look again. As a matter of fact, I challenge you on it. I
>>>> think you're either mistaken, or a liar, plain and simple (and I really
>>>> do believe it's the former, not the latter).
>>>>
>>>> I recently called Ben one, because of his (I'll grant him and you,
>>>> perceived) threat about legal action.
>>>>
>>>> I called Slim one when he stated that I was "non-chalant" about
>>>> soldier's deaths. If he had said that one to my face, I'd have done a
>>>> lot more than call him an asshole.
>>>>
>>>> And, there was the time when Robert didn't like me responding to one of
>>>> his messages, and referred to me as "Mr. Herb
>>>> Always-has-to-have-the-last-word Parsons" and I told him to quit acting
>>>> like one (you know, the whole name-calling thing that some of you think
>>>> is so bad, depending, of course, on who it's aimed at).
>>>>
>>>> That's 2, 3 if you count the "acting like". I post here a LOT and I
>>>> don't think 2 or 3 posts would really qualify as "frequent". But then,
>>>> I
>>>> wouldn't have thought my position mentioned earlier as "extreme".
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the past email in my system, Brad tends to call folks that
>>>> as
>>>> well, one notable case was aimed at Pete. I seem to have gotten credit
>>>> for that one a couple of times, but twarn't me (though I didn't
>>>> disagree).
>>>>
>>>> Seems you're paying quite a bit of attention to what you don't like me
>>>> doing, and ignoring the rest. Would you like the examples of the
>>>> implied
>>>> racists, stated extremist, talk about "debaters vs just believers" and
>>>> all the other nonsense on here?
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, some folks on here seem to think it's cute, intelligent, or
>>>> somehow honorable to imply something about someone, and then rude for
>>>> another person to say something outright.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. Strongly.
>>>>
>>>> I say that when Rob writes "I've been saying for some time that the
>>>> Democrats are the party for thinkers and debaters while the Republicans
>>>> just believe" he's saying something about ME. Something that is a lie.
>>>> I'm a Republican, and he says I don't have the capacity (or choose not
>>>> to exercise it) to think and debate, but I simply blindly believe.
>>>>
>>>> Not only does he say it, he proudly admits he's been "saying for some
>>>> time".
>>>>
>>>> And that's somehow polite and OK, but asshole is not?
>>>>
>>>> Wow. I'll simply have to disagree on this one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Bradley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Herb, I assume you are reading the list and it's an open forum. My
>>>>> reply was voiced to Ben in answer to his question, but it was for you.
>>>>> I stand by my statements. You label yourself as extreme, and I
>>>>> agree. I don't recall anyone directly calling you a racist or a
>>>>> religous kook or a bigot. I do recall you telling people they are an
>>>>> asshole with some frequency. I think you degrade the experience for
>>>>> all.
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion. Call me what you will.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gee Davey, I wish I wuz smart like you. I thinks ah did a little give
>>>>>> and take, but I definitely didn't run Ben down to someone else and
>>>>>> pretend he couldn't see what I was saying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll give Ben this much, he has an issue with someone, he addresses
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> to them directly, not as an aside to someone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Bradley wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben, your posts are appreciated by what I suspect is a silent
>>>>>>> majority, even if a slim one. Herb is to the right of 99% of the
>>>>>>> population, loves to pick a fight and is first to escalate the tone
>>>>>>> and begin the name calling. He would have been thrown out of any
>>>>>>> bar
>>>>>>> I've ever hung out in long ago. Most of us just don't bother to
>>>>>>> reason with him because there is no reasoning, no give and take.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Benjamin Cittadino
>>>>>>> <bigben65 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Paul;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I appreciate the sentiment. Thanks for the thought. Frankly, I'm
>>>>>>>> reassessing my role here and whether it makes sense to participate
>>>>>>>> further,
>>>>>>>> at least as to the political stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> pdgrand wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ben,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not Jb but I'd like to weigh in on the subject. As I said in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> past, I used to especially enjoy the political debating between
>>>>>>>>> Brad &
>>>>>>>>> Bill in past election cycles. They didn't get personal and they
>>>>>>>>> kept it
>>>>>>>>> respectful. Bill seems to be sitting this one out, leaving you,
>>>>>>>>> Pete &
>>>>>>>>> some others to lead the arguements for the left against Brad, Herb
>>>>>>>>> & Ed on
>>>>>>>>> the right. Personally, I don't recall reading anything from you
>>>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>>> would term offensive. Others obviously disagree. Discussing
>>>>>>>>> politics
>>>>>>>>> often evokes different levels of emotion in different people.
>>>>>>>>> Let's keep
>>>>>>>>> the lively debate going, but everyone needs to work on not taking
>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> personally or getting personal with a reply to what may only be a
>>>>>>>>> perceived insult (which you have done for the most part). In
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> words,
>>>>>>>>> everyone just needs to lighten up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Jb;
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am curious. Do you see no problem with Ed's post at the
>>>>>>>>>> beginning of
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> thread? Is it OK for members to call each other such vile names
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> marxist
>>>>>>>>>> or refer to them being co-conspirators in a fraud? I know your
>>>>>>>>>> opinion
>>>>>>>>>> about what I said. What is your opinion of what Ed said, not as
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> relates
>>>>>>>>>> to me but as it relates generally to behavior of forum members?
>>>>>>>>>> Do
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> such invective entertaining? I'm trying to be serious here for a
>>>>>>>>>> moment.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> am interested in your opinion because I haven't skirmished with
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>> and I really want a fresh thought on this? Are you willing to
>>>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>>>> aside
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> "reparte" for a moment and address this subject? You talk, I'll
>>>>>>>>>> listen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>>>>> My pic is at the end of the post. jb.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>>>>>>>>>>> leading
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking at my screen, but can't say for sure. I see black,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and see
>>>>>>>>>>>> white in your post.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are extremes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You realize, it's all tongue in cheek don't you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We both know the truth. Ben was putting out a stupid threat,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably embarrassed that anyone called him on it.... OK, I'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> honest, probably embarrassed that anyone besides ME called him
>>>>>>>>>>>> on it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I never liked it when the kids at school pumped out their
>>>>>>>>>>>> chests
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> they were ready to fight. I always thought the real fun was
>>>>>>>>>>>> watching
>>>>>>>>>>>> them back down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But, I'm an extremist, and probably do look like one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But then, there are worst things in life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Herb.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do I look like an extreamist?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hparsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahhh, good to know I'm not the only extremist that saw it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you should look a little closer at how you worded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not the only one ....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JbTek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant were you threatening to sue. That's what it read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think name calling is allowed on this list, or at least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threats are not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean, was Ed threatening to charge me as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> co-conspirator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounded like that to me. Or did you mean was Ed threatening
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> label
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> marxist? Sure sounded that way to me. Was I threatening to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sue Ed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was gently suggesting that if I did not have such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of humor a person in my position (libeled by him)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options and he ought not call people defamatory names.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just bent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got a question or you....was that a threat?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ben Cittadino" <bcittadino at dcs-law.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 8:39 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ... failure of leadership or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will you answer some questions for me? What is a marxist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes me a marxist in your view? Does the 1st Amendment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immunize folks who libel other folks? Does calling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> marxist
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not in fact a marxist constitute defamation of character?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life savings? Inquiring minds want to know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a nice day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama intentionally and cynically has misled the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship with Ayers. This issue isn't going away
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go away. Speculation is strong and the evidence is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> growing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama and Ayers relationship goes all the way back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> days
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NYC at Columbia (Ayers was there at the same time and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends of Dr. Saed) and that Ayers actually ghost
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> authored
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first book (the word count and sentence structure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirrors
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayer's
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writing and was written at a 12th grade level, Obama's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written at a 9th grade level). But let's forget
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speculation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment and stick with what is known. I'm posting a link
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the article so you can see the photo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/20/obama-praised-searing-timely-book-ayers/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We know from tax returns from the Annenberg Challenge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayers, and Klonsky all had offices on the same floor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building. Michelle and Ayers' wife both worked at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> firm.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama and Ayers appeared at joint speaking engagements
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way, Illinois ethics law prohibits receiving fees for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obama's tax returns show "speaker fees" during the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> period
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Illinois Senate, another MSM oversight).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Just a guy in my neighborhood with a degree in English"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That was willful intent to decieve and the MSM has for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let him get away with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man is a liar, if he were on trial he would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> guilty
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perjury - and he may well be, soon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Tootle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben said, "... Since I socialize mostly with folks in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socioeconomic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class, while most support Obama, ..." The term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leadership
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> comprises
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atributes. And part of what are call traditional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> simple
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honesty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes honesty requires analysis of what is going on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America, we have a problem..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben discounted the Bill Ayers thing. Even if he is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ayers, he as an American has an obligation to speak the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist is obligated to tell the truth and not lie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with his candidate Obama.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what are the elements of Conspiracy? If you know or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable known something? Are you obligated to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not say anything are you a coconspirator?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Ben's case I have to ask, if a fraud is being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commited is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obligated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak out?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is why I routinely for years have quoted:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Germany they first came for the Communists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the Jews,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unionist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for the Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they came for me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and by that time no one was left to speak up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Confessing
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who spent seven years in a concentration camp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben said, "... I, on the other hand, wish there were no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> connection
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because then we could argue about policy instead of who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> who,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when, and what possible difference it makes."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this an admission of an issue? Saying that because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deny
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connection is using Richard Nixon's arguement that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> politics did it, therefore it was o.k. Saying his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> deny
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not make it go away. It is Richard Nixon's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguement all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't Nixon a lawyer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does law school teach ask the hard questions in court,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of yourself? Are lawyers above the law? Inquiring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minds want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attachment for Andrew:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20084939/Andrew%2527s%2Bversion.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew%27s+version.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20084939.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20093092.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20099555.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
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>>>>>>>>>>>> to
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
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>>>>>>>>>>>> to
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p20100644/Jb.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
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>>>>>>>>>>>> go to
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>> go to
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>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20101056.html
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> go to
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/...-failure-of-leadership-or-leading-...-tp20084939p20122113.html
>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Bradley
>> +1.206.234.3977
>> dwbrad at gmail.com
>>
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>>
>
> --
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